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The NFA and GCA are Largely Unconstitutional - Printable Version

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The NFA and GCA are Largely Unconstitutional - jasper2408 - 07-10-2022

Here is an interesting article about the unconstitutionality of the National Firearms Act of 1934 and the Gun Control Act of 1968.

Quote:During Prohibition, Al Capone’s Chicago gang made the Thompson submachine gun a symbol of gang violence. The “Chicago Typewriter” could empty a hundred-round drum magazine in under ten seconds, and make headlines, while occasionally perforating both targets and bystanders.

Congress saw an opportunity to “do something,” and “wasn’t willing to let a ‘crisis’ go to waste.” The ultimate result is the National Firearms Act of 1934 (“NFA”), which was later amended by the Gun Control Act of 1968 (“GCA”). The net result is that certain firearms and firearm-related items have seriously disfavored status, completely unrelated to anything having to do with crime or Constitution.

The NFA states that for certain items such as machine guns and suppressors, the purchaser must pay a $200 tax and then wait for extended periods for the federal government to decide that it’s okay for him to have the item. But the Supreme Court said in Bruen that “lengthy wait times in processing license applications or exorbitant fees deny ordinary citizens their right to public carry.”

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (“BATFE”) routinely violates this idea with wait times of a year or more before issuing permits. Granted, they’re purchase authorizations, not carry permits, but the same idea applies. When you have a constitutional right to a weapon or suppressor, all other considerations require extremely careful examination.

When I go to a dealer to purchase a firearm, I must first fill out Form 4473 and pay a $5 fee to run a National Instant Check System (“NICS”) background check. If I fail the check, I’m out the fin and must go through an appeal process. Only when that is finished can I buy the gun. But ordinarily, I’m cleared out the door in minutes because I have a Florida license to carry. Without the license, it’s a three-day wait. Not exactly the same as waiting for a trial after January 6 but still....

But for my silencer, I had to send in my fingerprints, fill out a form, pay my $200, do not pass Go, and wait. And wait. And wait. When I look at the legal rules to own a suppressor ("silencer"), there are three basic criteria:

I’m legally eligible to purchase a firearm in a state that allows suppressors.
I pass the BATFE background check.
I pay the $200 tax.

That’s it. In short, all this could be done in the five minutes it took to do the NICS check because it’s functionally the same background check. Add in the two C notes, and everything should be over in the time it takes to ring up the transaction. But so far, I’m at eleven months and counting. That definitely qualifies as a “lengthy wait time.” Even if we throw in the fingerprints, that shouldn’t take more than a day, since police can routinely get prints run in hours. Suppressors are legal. You heard me correctly. This is an essential key concept. Because I am a lawful gun owner, the only material difference is that I must pay the extra tax. Thus, the process does not describe a prohibition. Rather, the NFA is “to provide for… taxation.” Unfortunately, it’s also a way some bureaucrat who decides to shut you down to deny you your lawful exercise of your Second Amendment rights. Bruen, however, declared that if you are not a legally prohibited person, your right is exactly that: a right.

The NFA also covers “short barreled rifles,” “short barreled shotguns,” “machine guns,” “any other weapon,” and “destructive devices.” All of these, except for explosives, have the same conditions for possession. A brief overview will show how arbitrary these definitions are.

A short-barreled rifle has a barrel under 16 inches or a length of less than 26 inches. But!!! If the buttstock of an SBR is exchanged for a “brace” that can be secured to the shooter’s forearm, it’s now a pistol and doesn’t need to be taxed under the NFA. So, my AR pistol at 27 inches with a brace and a 10-inch barrel is legally a pistol and I’m free of the BATFE. But if I add a vertical foregrip for about $25, it suddenly becomes “any other weapon” and I must pay the $200 and go to BATFE for a blessing that may come next year. Of course, it’s still longer than the Israeli TAVOR battle rifle (26 ¼ inches) which is legally an ordinary rifle outside BATFE’s tax scheme regardless of any accessories I add.

Shotguns get more insane rules. They must have 18-inch barrels. Why? It’s just as arbitrary as 16-inch barrels for rifles. In United States v. Miller (1939), the Supreme Court ruled against weapons that did not have specific military applications. Sawed-off shotguns were not military weapons in 1939 but became key guns the “tunnel rats” carried in Vietnam. So, they are presumptively protected. But for the moment, BATFE gets its pound of flesh.

Another shotgun rule is particularly silly. You can fire .410 shotgun shells in many 45-caliber revolvers. But if you put a smooth bore barrel on the revolver instead of the rifled one, you now have “any other weapon,” again subject to tax. But such a revolver might be particularly valuable for home defense, which is clearly a protected right under Heller and Bruen.

We could go on, but it’s clear that BATFE has been acting in a way clearly hostile to Second Amendment rights by unreasonably delaying approval to purchase various firearms and accessories. Further, the law under which it operates is the very definition of “arbitrary and capricious.” Florida Statutes 120.57 2.d explains that “A rule is arbitrary if it is not supported by logic or the necessary facts; a rule is capricious if it is adopted without thought or reason or is irrational.” The Supreme Court has applied this definition in multiple cases.

We might suggest that restricting private ownership of explosives could be legal. The imposition of these excise taxes might be a lawful act. But levying a tax on the exercise of a constitutional right is a clear infringement of that right. If I want to buy a fully automatic weapon and pay for the immense amount of ammunition it eats just because it has the giggle switch (full auto selector), that is my right. I become liable when I misuse it, just as I would become liable for misusing a single shot derringer or a delivery truck.

Imposing extra taxes on a constitutionally protected activity is a prior restraint on that right. First Amendment cases have clearly held prior restraints to be unlawful. Lengthy wait times are similarly unconstitutional. And the provisions of the NFA are arbitrary and capricious. That must include the GCA prohibition on private ownership of automatic weapons manufactured after 1969. We must therefore conclude that the bulk of both the National Firearms Act and Gun Control Act is unconstitutional in both its text and application. SCOTUS should strike them both down at the earliest opportunity.



The NFA and GCA are Largely Unconstitutional - grayfox - 07-10-2022

So.... when will he/she/they file suit on this? Especially since Bruen is on the books...
Even though one of the main thrusts of this latest Scotus refers to the 2A right to bear a personal handgun as self defense outside the home (the key aspect of "bear")...
Not knocking the article but looking for who will file to pursue it.


The NFA and GCA are Largely Unconstitutional - PVBoom - 07-10-2022

There is a suit already. I caught a youtube this morning. The NFA is being challenged under Bruen.


The NFA and GCA are Largely Unconstitutional - jasper2408 - 07-10-2022

grayfox Wrote:So.... when will he/she/they file suit on this? Especially since Bruen is on the books...
Even though one of the main thrusts of this latest Scotus refers to the 2A right to bear a personal handgun as self defense outside the home (the key aspect of "bear")...
Not knocking the article but looking for who will file to pursue it.

The person that wrote the article is just bringing attention to some of the unconstitutional rules that govern guns and some gun accessories. I know that GOA is suing the ATF about the 80% gun rule and forcing FFLs to hand over all of their gun records, instead of 20 years worth, if they go out of business. This basically establishes a national gun registry and allows the ATF to make up their own rules without any intervention from Congress, which is unconstitutional.

Never thought that Roe or the NY permit law would be overturned, but they were, so time to start getting in the face of the ATF, which means putting it out there and taking their power away, one ruling at a time if that is what it takes.

I put the OP up so that it might encourage fellow shooters to get in their state and federal congress crooks faces to let them know that we are tired of their bull crap and that we aim to change it. Politicians don't hear very well so you have to scream it at them alot with multiple emails. We can't afford to just stand by and expect different results anymore.

This is why I posted the article.


Edit: Sorry PV you posted while I was writing my reply. That sounds encouraging.


The NFA and GCA are Largely Unconstitutional - grayfox - 07-10-2022

I'm encouraged, don't want to come off as not encouraged. Just that, unfortunately, we need some dedicated groups and lawyers to take it all on.
GOA is one group I support with my $$ (small as it is), because they are willing to fight, go toe to toe. Same for Roe (FRC etc - the right to life is even more fundamental than 2A, these 2 are definitely linked at the hip).
My own view of the 2A is not completely totally unfettered ownership, but owning such as would be normally expected for a person to show up with, if a militia or local defense group, was to be called up. Small arms and supplies, kind of like (I think) the Swiss do. Not real keen on a neighbor owning a tank or F15 or rocket launcher, even a 50-cal machine gun (Barretts would be fine IMO!) -- I'm fine with those being stored, maybe locally, and control, issue and training of same by some kind of govt... one that respects the 2A and citizens. Matter of fact we should definitely be training some citizens on these.

So in that vein if someone can beat back the bureaucRATS, and return these rights to citizens, I'm all for it.


The NFA and GCA are Largely Unconstitutional - LRRPF52 - 07-11-2022

We need a poison pill lawsuit that puts them in a vice between two choices ATF doesn’t want.

A reasonable amount of time for being able to exercise my rights is right freaking now, not 2 days from now, not 2 weeks, or 15 months after submitting their stupid paperwork.

Rifles weren’t even supposed to be mentioned in the NFA, and weren’t in the original draft. A Minnesota Congressman who was concerned about deer hunters back home was one of those guys who kept asking about the possibility of rifles being restricted, even with the gun-grabbing Attorney General having no intent of messing with rifles at all.

During the NFA hearings, they never even discussed why suppressors were being covered in that assault on the Bill of Rights. I printed out the entire proceeding to peruse and highlight. They just never discussed why suppressors were included.

Time to take the SCOTUS rulings on 2A and apply them to NFA and crush it, while demanding return of all the $200 stamp tax fees with interest. That whole canard was simply retarded. You can’t tax a right as some type of prohibition-era inebriated brain work-around the 2A.


The NFA and GCA are Largely Unconstitutional - grayfox - 07-11-2022

GOA has filed their lawsuit against the ATF on the new proposed rule.
The battle begins!

Read and donate at the GAO website if you feel inclined. I do, b/c they will actually fight.

[TABLE="class: yiv9430244906deviceWidth, width: 620, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]Dear [ },[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: yiv9430244906deviceWidth, width: 620, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]We’re once again taking the ATF to court.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: yiv9430244906deviceWidth, width: 620, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]Gun Owners Foundation just filed a federal lawsuit against the ATF’s proposed “Ghost Gun” and Gun Registry Final Rule, which is slated to take effect August 24.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: yiv9430244906deviceWidth, width: 620, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]This rule imposes near-universal gun owner registration and restricts the ability to make your own guns at home — a tradition which is older than our Republic.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: yiv9430244906deviceWidth, width: 620, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]After the recent Supreme Court decision that reaffirmed our Second Amendment rights to keep and bear arms, we are optimistic that we can win this fight.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: yiv9430244906deviceWidth, width: 620, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]But I know it’s going to be a lengthy and expensive legal battle, similar to what we’ve gone through in our bump stock case, which is on appeal to the Supreme Court.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: yiv9430244906deviceWidth, width: 620, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]The ATF and their gun control lawyers will be fighting us tooth and nail in hopes that they can keep dragging out this legal battle until our funds are depleted.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: yiv9430244906deviceWidth, width: 620, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]That’s why YOUR support will be essential to keep us in the fight for however long it takes — especially since this battle may end up at the Supreme Court.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: yiv9430244906deviceWidth, width: 620, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]Please make a tax-deductible contribution to Gun Owners Foundation’s Legal Defense Fund to ensure we have every resource we need in our new legal battle against the ATF.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

There is more at the end, which I did not see at first:

[TABLE="class: yiv9430244906deviceWidth, width: 620, align: center"]
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[TD="align: left"]I should note that we have already put the ATF on the defensive.
[/TD]
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[TABLE="class: yiv9430244906deviceWidth, width: 620, align: center"]
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[TD="align: left"]Thanks to activists like you who sent over 65,000 angry comments to the ATF, the rule was HEAVILY modified from its original proposed version.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: yiv9430244906deviceWidth, width: 620, align: center"]
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[TD="align: left"]Here are three of the most significant “victories” that our pressure campaign against the ATF achieved:
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: yiv9430244906deviceWidth, width: 620, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]??You will not have to serialize (read: register) every new magazine, barrel, or trigger that you use to upgrade your existing firearm.
??You will not have to register a firearm simply because you Cerakote or color your firearm.
??And you will have greater protection when having a gun dealer check out or modify your privately made firearm — as now, the requirement to serialize a homemade firearm has been limited to only apply when a dealer takes that gun into his inventory overnight.

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: yiv9430244906deviceWidth, width: 620, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]In fact, the ATF explicitly concedes that they watered down the regulations because of the “numerous commenters” like you who opposed them.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: yiv9430244906deviceWidth, width: 620, align: center"]
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[TD="align: left"]Now, I want to be as clear as possible…
[/TD]
[/TR]
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[TABLE="class: yiv9430244906deviceWidth, width: 620, align: center"]
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[TD="align: left"]…While it’s good that the ATF rules were modified, a “watered down” assault on our rights is still an assault on our rights.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: yiv9430244906deviceWidth, width: 620, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]That’s why our legal team at Gun Owners Foundation will keep fighting until the ATF’s ENTIRE assault on our rights has been gutted.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: yiv9430244906deviceWidth, width: 620, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]Gun Owners Foundation firmly believes in fighting based on the text and history of the Second Amendment.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: yiv9430244906deviceWidth, width: 620, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]But to win this fight, we’ll certainly need support from our members like you.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: yiv9430244906deviceWidth, width: 620, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]So please, make a tax-deductible contribution to Gun Owners Foundation’s Legal Defense Fund to ensure we have every resource we need in our new legal battle against the ATF.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: yiv9430244906deviceWidth, width: 620, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]In Liberty,
[/TD]
[/TR]
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[TABLE="class: yiv9430244906deviceWidth, width: 620, align: center"]
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[TD="align: left"]Erich Pratt
Senior Vice President
Gun Owners Foundation

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


The NFA and GCA are Largely Unconstitutional - Tx264 - 07-12-2022

No mag,barrel or trigger.cool.
What about uppers?


The NFA and GCA are Largely Unconstitutional - StoneHendge - 07-13-2022

It should not be lost on anyone that the smackdown the SC gave the EPA will influence lawsuits against the ATF. With the "ghost gun" ban, the ATF is making a law where there is none. Such a law would be the responsibility of Congress (with the constitutionality of it a different issue).


The NFA and GCA are Largely Unconstitutional - grayfox - 07-13-2022

That lawsuit has begun.


The NFA and GCA are Largely Unconstitutional - grendelnubi - 07-13-2022

A well known utuber who was arrested for sharing details of the auto card is now brought a lawsuit against the ATF which includes taking a position that ATF is unconstitutional. It's my understanding they are pushing to dissolve the ATF.


The NFA and GCA are Largely Unconstitutional - jasper2408 - 07-14-2022

grendelnubi Wrote:A well known utuber who was arrested for sharing details of the auto card is now brought a lawsuit against the ATF which includes taking a position that ATF is unconstitutional. It's my understanding they are pushing to dissolve the ATF.

I went and watched a video made by the two lawyers that are defending this fella and one lawyer said that he got an email from a guy that was mad at them for trying to get the machine gun ban lifted as it would make his machine gun collection go down in value. He told them that they needed to stop right now. Sometimes I think that we are our own worst enemy here.

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One thing that I will mention is that the senators on the original NFA committee knew that what they were doing was unconstitutional and that is why they added the $200.00 tax. You could own it but you had to pay a tax so technically they weren't infringing on your right to own a weapon. Trouble was that at the time no one could afford to pay the $200.00 fee and Capone didn't care so guess who got screwed again? Not the crooks.

Continuing on the subject of the NFA, here is an excerpt from the testimony of then-NRA President Karl T. Frederick and a small preface by the person who posted the full NRA presidents testimony.

Quote:Before you read the full transcript, your attention is drawn to a few of excerpts that might interest you as a friend of the original meaning, purpose and intent of the Second Amendment. Some NRA supporters are fond of saying that the NRA was not involved in gun-related legislative activities that far back. Somehow, they believe that repeating that myth often enough will make it true.

NRA President Frederick's testimony began by explaining that he had "been giving this subject of firearms regulations study and consideration over a period of 15 years" and that "the suggestions resulting from that study of mine...have resulted in the adoption in many States of regulatory provisions suggested by us." He later described his active role in helping pass D.C.'s then-recent, ultra-stringent gun controls. Having helped enact gun control legislation was a matter of pride for NRA's president -- as you shall see below. The D.C. gun controls of which he candidly boasted included the following provisions, among others:

• prohibited carrying a concealed pistol without a license -- with an exemption, of course, for law enforcement officers
• justification for getting licensed to carry a firearm if "applicant has good reason to fear injury to his person or property" -- and the license application process included a mugshot, treating lawful gun owners like common criminals
• a two-day waiting period to purchase a handgun -- with an exemption, of course, for law enforcement officers -- even though violent stalkers don't tend to wait to attack
• required thorough record-keeping by gun dealers, of all transactions and every buyer
• required that the seller deliver all of a buyer's personal information to the police within hours of the transaction, including the make, model and serial number of the firearm
• mandated that gun dealers be licensed at the discretion of the police
• banned altering firearms' serial numbers or other identifying marks

The copy of the text of that law, which the NRA had helped enact, begins on page 45 below. Frederick described the law as "the uniform firearms act which we [the NRA] sponsored" -- and submitted the full copy to the congressmen debating the enactment of NFA'34. The Washington D.C. gun controls mentioned in brief above were approved on July 8, 1932 -- nearly two years before the NRA's President gave the following testimony.

Looks like the NRA has their mitts all over the NFA. Here is the full NRA testimony if you want to read it:

http://www.keepandbeararms.com/nra/nfa.htm


The NFA and GCA are Largely Unconstitutional - grayfox - 07-14-2022

Geee. one more reason why I don't contribute any more to nra. My $$ goes to 2AF and GAO/GOF and those willing to actually stand up and fight. even why I buy from Larry I decline the nra round-up.


The NFA and GCA are Largely Unconstitutional - jasper2408 - 07-14-2022

grayfox Wrote:Geee. one more reason why I don't contribute any more to nra. My $$ goes to 2AF and GAO/GOF and those willing to actually stand up and fight. even why I buy from Larry I decline the nra round-up.

Same here grayfox.


The NFA and GCA are Largely Unconstitutional - grayfox - 07-14-2022

Awr Hawkins has a good article on Breitbart.
Portion quoted here:
...The Washington Times suggests the Bruen ruling means gun control of all types will now face challenges and in some cases, it is already being challenged.
The Times paraphrases Justice Clarence Thomas’s emphasis on the important of rulings like Bruen, McDonald v. Chicago (2010), and District of Columbia v. Heller (2008), saying, “The test courts must apply is whether a firearms restriction would have seemed reasonable to the founding generation that crafted and ratified the Second Amendment. If not, the law must give way to the Constitution.”
At this point the Second Amendment Foundation is seeking to challenge a federal ban on handgun purchases by people 18 to 20 years old, and the Firearms Policy Coalition (FPC) is pointing to the Bruen decision as it seeks to have New York’s “assault weapons” ban ruled unconstitutional.
FPC claims, “There is no constitutionally relevant difference between a semi-automatic handgun, shotgun, and rifle. While some exterior physical attributes may differ — wood vs. metal stocks and furniture, the number and/or location of grips, having a bare muzzle vs. having muzzle devices, different barrel lengths, etc. — they are, in all relevant respects, the same.”
Moreover, on July 1 Breitbart News pointed out that SCOTUS vacated and remanded a number of cases centered on an “assault weapons” ban in Maryland, a “high capacity” magazine ban in California, and carry restrictions in Hawaii.
A challenge to New Jersey’s “high capacity” ban was also among the cases vacated and remanded.
Bloomberg Law noted that in remanding the cases Justice Clarence Thomas wrote, “While that judicial deference to legislative interest balancing is understandable—and, elsewhere, appropriate—it is not deference that the Constitution demands here.”
The cases were vacated and remanded in light of the Bruen ruling.


The NFA and GCA are Largely Unconstitutional - Two Tone - 07-24-2022

All gun laws are unconstitutional.

All taxes on self defense are a disgrace.