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+--- Thread: The 120-123 class wont group what is going on (/showthread.php?tid=23790)
The 120-123 class wont group what is going on - Dt219 - 10-04-2021
Lilja barrel with under 200 rounds down the pipe cant group any heavy bullets. 120 eldm, 123 smk, or hornady black 123 eldm. Bought the barrel new to zip the light bullets and it does with ease both 85gr Sierras and the 90gr tnt bullets across different powders and charges its almost like it cant shoot a bad group. So I thought hey let me see what the Grendel is all about. Picked up some 120s and already had the 123smk from a 260 rem. I had. Well long story short I have tried benchmark for the hell of it, varget and lever with the 120eld about a 1.5in is all I could muster from those powders. So I picked up some cfe223 this wknd and tried it with the 123smk. Same result about 1.5in groups. Tried the hornady blacks. Maybe 1.25in group. Try different pills or powder ? Its about to get old burning through stuff and combos that should group better than it is. Bumping shoulder back .004 full length hornady sizing and seating dies. CCI 450 primers, starline brass. Prob contacting Lilja in the morning.
The 120-123 class wont group what is going on - grayfox - 10-04-2021
before we can have any ideas on what is going on, need more info on the specific loads.
What barrel length?
Loads - What powder, bullet, grains, primer (although any reputable primer will obviously work, as long as it's the same one for your loads), oal and where does that bullet hit the lands (so we can figure the jump) - have you measured where the bullets hit lands with an OAL gauge?
I have a 20" lilja and it will shoot anything, 120-123's included. Sometimes you need to have the right load however.
Factory hornady black won't tell you much about a barrel.
Of the powders you list, I wouldn't have chosen either varget or Bmk, cfe223 will work but you need to be close to top of your useable powder range. Lever is a bit faster than CFE but I don't have any load data for it.
Final thought: have you done any ladder shooting to see how your lot of powder and bullet combo works MV-wise, in your barrel?
The 120-123 class wont group what is going on - Dt219 - 10-04-2021
It is a 18-19 inch Lilja. Some say 18 some say 19, I have not measured my jump to the lands been going off mag length but I do know they are not touching or jammed into the lands. I do not know the mv of any heavy loads I have tested and the grains per powder is all written down at my uncles in my load book. Using cci 450s as its all I have. Well I do have some 400s. Just have not used them in a ar15 yet. I usually start mid charge and go up to around max with published data in .3gr increments. There is many I dont knows to your questions but I do know Im getting bad results on paper with the heavier bullets and cant come up with a bad load for the lighter ones. Which is dang backwards. And no I have not ran a ladder to watch velocities
The 120-123 class wont group what is going on - hill37 - 10-04-2021
What is the barrel twist?
The 120-123 class wont group what is going on - Dt219 - 10-04-2021
1:8 I think thats all is offered through Lilja in 6.5 grendel.
The 120-123 class wont group what is going on - LR1955 - 10-04-2021
Dt219 Wrote:1:8 I think thats all is offered through Lilja in 6.5 grendel.
Dt:
You said you had 120 Sierras but didn't mention their performance. I am pretty sure you will say '1.5 minutes' but will ask anyway. Very few here have had a problem with that specific bullet.
Tell us about your actual shooting when you are testing. Your position, distance, call area, number of rounds fired per load. What you think is important.
Also, have you had anyone else shoot your rifle with the heavier bullets?
LR-55
The 120-123 class wont group what is going on - Dt219 - 10-04-2021
I have tried 120eldm hornadys and 123 Sierra match kings. I shoot off a bench with bags up front and the rear. Can only muster 1.25in - 1.50in groups at best with either bullet at 100 yards. And no I have not let anybody else shoot it yet. During testing I usually only shoot 3 shot groups to begin with going up in .3 increments. I wouldnt think its me pulling or flinching since I have no problems shooting and stacking the 85s and 90s into a .5in group pretty consistently. Maybe I just have not hit on a decent combo. I did not expect a Lilja to be this picky. I have several powders I can try but not many bullets in there weight class. I can get my hands on some 123 eldm local but thats all the options I have Thanks
The 120-123 class wont group what is going on - mdram - 10-04-2021
have you tried seating depth testes based on your best group?
The 120-123 class wont group what is going on - Dt219 - 10-04-2021
I have not, Do you think seating depth changes could drastically help those big of groups ?
The 120-123 class wont group what is going on - mdram - 10-04-2021
maybe.
The 120-123 class wont group what is going on - Dt219 - 10-04-2021
Well on the next round of tests Im going to go back to using a chrono and look for velocity nodes since what I been doing isnt working
The 120-123 class wont group what is going on - Mesa1978 - 10-04-2021
Reamer? Who cut the chamber? SAMMI std?
The 120-123 class wont group what is going on - Dt219 - 10-04-2021
Either Lilja or whoever chambers Liljas barrels. I bought it chambered ready to mount
The 120-123 class wont group what is going on - grayfox - 10-04-2021
Dt219 Wrote:Well on the next round of tests Im going to go back to using a chrono and look for velocity nodes since what I been doing isnt working
^^^ this. Without the chrony you are shooting in the dark. MV response to your load ladders is what tells you where to look, grains-wise. Let us know how that turns out.
The 120-123 class wont group what is going on - Dt219 - 10-04-2021
Gonna give it a whirl. But Im not chasing low low es/sd with 1 groups. My mind wont work like that. I just assumed hell since it was a breeze getting the hard to shoot bullets to group that the heavy ones would be easy
The 120-123 class wont group what is going on - grendelnubi - 10-04-2021
I do not believe your experience is any more challenging than what I have faced in the beginning of load development for the Grendel. You just need more work to find the right powder / projectile combination for your barrel. The Grendel can be finicky, in my opinion.
Are flyers opening the group size up or is it consistently just shotgunning 1.5" groups? Pics of the grouping will help. I experience flyers a lot using CFE223.
Factory 123 projectiles in my 18" Oden works doesn't shoot very good groups either at 100 yds but it is very consistent at 200 yds. Factory Grendel ammo seems to be marginally hot for me.
Odin 18" 123 Hornady SST - 2424 fps - 1.16" at 100 yds - 1.27" @ 200 yds
Odin 18" 123 American Gunner - 2418 fps - 1.25" at 100 yds - 1.24" @ 200 yds
Odin 18" 123 AA Scenar - 2468 fps - 0.944" at 100 yds
Odin 18" 123 Hornady Black ELD-M - ??fps - 0.652" at 100 yds
PS: I have experienced significantly better groups and overall ease of load development after moving to Nosler projectiles. The 120 NBT is the best performer I have found. Consistent .75" groups. My favorite powder is Ar Comp. So far it performs best for me using 120 - 129gr projectiles. I used a whole 1lb of CFE223 with 123 SST projectiles trying to get it to perform and never was satisfied with it. I still have a couple hundred 123 SST's and may look at them again...
The lighter pills 90 TNT ect.. performs very good for me as well.
I suggest before doing any more work, you clean your barrel as good as you can and then work it hard with JB Paste. Next I would focus on some different projectiles and powders. It took me a year to find a load/projectile combination. I was new to reloading but the information from this forum and the Grendel handbooks made a huge difference in my learning curve.
Stay with it, it will come to you.
The 120-123 class wont group what is going on - Dt219 - 10-04-2021
Its mostly just shot gun printing. Once in a while it will put 2 close and set the 3rd one out bad but Im certain it wasnt me. Id even redo the group just to see and it would be the same outcome or even worse. Hard part is finding projectiles !! I can get most powders with ease although some is pricy they are on the shelf. I have plenty of brass and primers. Is it against the law to try normal small rifle primers Instead of the 450s ? My uncle is shooting a 6arc with 400s middle of the road charges and hasnt seen any problems using them. No failures no slam fires and no piercings
The 120-123 class wont group what is going on - mdram - 10-04-2021
Dt219 Wrote:Its mostly just shot gun printing. Once in a while it will put 2 close and set the 3rd one out bad but Im certain it wasnt me. Id even redo the group just to see and it would be the same outcome or even worse. Hard part is finding projectiles !! I can get most powders with ease although some is pricy they are on the shelf. I have plenty of brass and primers. Is it against the law to try normal small rifle primers Instead of the 450s ? My uncle is shooting a 6arc with 400s middle of the road charges and hasnt seen any problems using them. No failures no slam fires and no piercings
blue collar has some 123 in stock, both sst and eld
The 120-123 class wont group what is going on - m796rider - 10-04-2021
My 20" Howa will only shoot 123 SSTs well if they're loaded the same length as factory rounds and not max charge for powder (I use CFE223).
Factory Hornady ammo shoots fine until the barrel heats up.
The 120-123 class wont group what is going on - Klem - 10-04-2021
Dt,
Could be anything - Factors affecting where bullets go are numerous; including (1) environmental condition, (2) ammunition, (3) shooters ability, (4) precision potential of the gun, and (5) stability of the rest. It also depends on how many rounds you fire with each combination before deciding you have the answer. There is not enough information to say for sure so we need to know all the facts. Pictures of the groups would help.