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+--- Thread: I'm brand new to AR's (/showthread.php?tid=22847)
I'm brand new to AR's - Moe2889 - 02-07-2021
Hi I'm looking to put together my first AR build. I chose to go with 6.5 grendal for my first AR. I'm new to ARs period. I already got a lower getting ready to ship so I'm looking for uppers now. I'm looking for a upper thats accurate and reliable. Not looking to have malfunctions the first time I take it out. The brands I know about are PSA Grendal Hunter Alexander Arms and Odin Works. I know AA and Odin Works would be the top tier uppers. My question is what upper is accurate and basically guaranteed reliable? Does barrel length play an effect? Most 18 inch uppers ive seen have the adjustable gas blocks and I didn't really see those on the other length of barrels.
I'm brand new to AR's - VASCAR2 - 02-07-2021
I think it helps to have a velocity comparison for the different barrel lengths. If you have the velocity and Ballistic Coefficient you can calculate the down range velocity and trajectory for the different bullet weights and barrel lengths. Here are some chronograph results Ive gotten plus some 12 chronograph data posted online. For most 6.5 Grendel bullets to expand you need between 1800 to 2000 FPS. One exception is the Nosler 129 grain Accu Bond Long Range (ABLR) which supposedly expands down to 1300 FPS. A couple of forum members have used 12 6.5 Grendel to take Deer. It is surprising how well the 6.5 Grendel can perform out of shorter barrels.
Barrel length can give more velocity but a longer barrel doesnt mean it will be more accurate. In the current buying frenzy you might have better luck trying to assemble an upper compared to buying a complete upper. The answers you seek are here on the forum. Hopefully the chronograph results will help you get an idea of the 6.5 Grendel velocities and which barrel length meet your needs. The shorter barrels are handy in dense foliage and the longer barrels are nice in more open terrain. I think the 18 length 6.5 Grendel hit the sweet spot for performance and maneuverability. In an AR-15 I think the 24 and longer barrels are not practical except from a bench, prone or hunting blind.
12 6.5 Grendel chronograph results
Buffman Range video 12 PSA 6.5 Grendel Federal Berger 130 grain OTM GMM 2073 FPS (Pro Chrony)
18 PSA Nitride 6.5 Grendel Federal 130 grain Hybrid-OTM Berger GMM 2322 FPS (Pro Chrony)
12 PSA SS with LabRadar.
123gr Hornady American Gunner bulk HPBT = 2201 FPS average with SD of 14.7 (2" to 2.55" groups)
123gr Hornady ELD-M Black = 2265 FPS average with SD of 13.2 (1.4 to 1.7" groups)
123gr Hornady Custom SST Factory= 2277 average with SD of 11.8 (2.9 to 3.2" groups)
12 Faxon
Wolf steel case at 2364 Avg. SD was 9.7.
Here is a list of the tested ammo by average velocity for each barrel length.
120 Grain HP BT PPU
16" 2392
18" 2455
20" 2480
24" 2559
110 grain FMJ PPU
16" 2510
18" 2570
20" 2614
24" 2683
123 grain A-Max Hornady
12 2265 (123 grain ELD-M)
16" 2419
18" 2464
20" 2505
24" 2568
123 Grain SST Hornady
12 2277
16" 2430
18" 2493
20" 2511
24" 2583
Hand Load 123 Grain Nosler CC, 31.0 grains CFE223, CCI 450
16" 2449
18" 2471
20" 2526
24" 2619
100 Grain FMJ Wolf
12 2364
16" 2507
18" 2571
20" 2615
24" 2695
Hand Load 107 Grain SMK 28.5 IMR8208XBR, CCI 41 Hornady cases.
20" 2658
24" 2729
Hornady 123 grain American Gunner
12 2201
Here is the difference between the 18 barrel compared to the shorter 16 barrel which was slower with every load.
120 grain PPU HP BT
63 FPS difference
110 grain PPU FMJ
60 FPS difference
123 grain A-Max
45 FPS difference
123 grain SST
63 FPS difference
Hand load 123 grain Nosler CC
27 FPS difference
Wolf 100 grain FMJ Steel cased
64 FPS difference
Difference between 20 and 18 barrel 6.5 Grendel
120 grain PPU HP BT
25 FPS difference
110 grain PPU FMJ
44 FPS
123 grain A-Max
41 FPS difference
123 grain SST
18 FPS
Hand load 123 grain Nosler CC
55 FPS difference
Wolf 100 grain FMJ Steel Cased
44 FPS difference
Difference between 24" and 20"
PPU 120 grain HB BT
79 FPS
PPU 110 grain FMJ
69 FPS
123 grain A-Max, Hornady
63 FPS
123 grain SST, Hornady
72 FPS
Hand Load 123 grain Nosler CC, 31.0 grains CFE223, CCI 450
93 FPS
100 grain FMJ Wolf
80 FPS
Hand Load 107 grain SMK 28.5 grains IMR8208XBR, CCI 41
71 FPS
I'm brand new to AR's - VASCAR2 - 02-07-2021
The 18 barrel can be purchased with mid length gas port or rifle length gas port location. The location and size of the gas port can affect reliability especially if using a suppressor. Having an adjustable gas block can be handy but normally not necessary unless you plan on using a suppressor. The 18 mid length 6.5 Grendel tend to be more finicky with a suppressor than the rifle length gas system on an 18 barrel.
I never use a suppressor and my 18 Faxon Group Buy Monster barrel with mid length gas system with standard carbine buffer and spring has been 100 % reliable. Put a suppressor on it and Im sure it would be over gassed. Some barrel manufacturers have sold 18 6.5 Grendel barrels with over sized gas ports on mid length gas barrels. Those barrels usually benefit from an adjustable gas block, adjustable gas carrier key (Rubber City Armory) or adjustable gas bolt carrier like Bootleg.
My first 6.5 Grendel was a 16 complete upper I bought with a carbine length gas system. This barrel is over gassed and I finally fixed it by using a Rubber City Armory adjustable gas carrier key. The 6.5 Grendel has a little learning curve. Generally if you step away from 223/5.56 there can be occasional issues whereas the 223/5.56 there is a longer history and knowledge base. Magazines seem to be affected by poor quality control for the 6.5 Grendel compared to 223/5.56 AR-15s.
I have two 16, one 18, one 20 and one 12 6.5 Grendel AR-15s. The only troublesome upper was the 16 upper I bought complete. The uppers Ive assembled myself have been as reliable as my 223/5.56 AR-15s. I own 33 AR-15 6.5 Grendel mags and Ive had problems with two which I fixed myself. Those two magazines caused stoppages but were quickly fixed. One ASC 25 round mag needed a feed lip adjusted. One 24 round E-Lander had rough welds on the spine which added drag to the follower. A few passes with a file fixed that mag.
I'm brand new to AR's - A5BLASTER - 02-07-2021
Moe2889 Wrote:Hi I'm looking to put together my first AR build. I chose to go with 6.5 grendal for my first AR. I'm new to ARs period. I already got a lower getting ready to ship so I'm looking for uppers now. I'm looking for a upper thats accurate and reliable. Not looking to have malfunctions the first time I take it out. The brands I know about are PSA Grendal Hunter Alexander Arms and Odin Works. I know AA and Odin Works would be the top tier uppers. My question is what upper is accurate and basically guaranteed reliable? Does barrel length play an effect? Most 18 inch uppers ive seen have the adjustable gas blocks and I didn't really see those on the other length of barrels.
My advice. Do it right the first time. Call mark at Precision Firearms and have him build you a upper.
Will cost more but It will be the top shelf of top shelf products.
Edit to add.
Mark will also give you a first order discount for being a grendel fourm member.
I'm brand new to AR's - BowChamp - 02-07-2021
This is what I have. You will have to wait......and it is well worth it.
https://www.larue.com/products/larue-ultimate-ar-15-upper-kit/
I'm brand new to AR's - 7mmtcu - 02-07-2021
before you buy check out Atheris products i bought an upper last year topped it with a Vortex strke eagle dropped in my load from my bolt Howa and shot 1/4 to 1/2 min@ 100 YDS little break in. the load is Hornaday brass fed sm rifle 28 gr ar comp and sierra 107 tmk oal 2.260 also it is a 24 inch bbl.
I'm brand new to AR's - Moe2889 - 02-07-2021
Thanks for all the info. There's alot to think about. All those others companies I didn't know about so I'm going to research all of them and see what works for me. I was leaning towards the Odin Works 18 inch upper but ill wait and check out the other companies. I appreciate the info.
I'm brand new to AR's - PVBoom - 02-08-2021
You know, if you want a nice accurate one, and can settle for a 16 for now, there is an Alexander Arms ANIB available (sans BCG/CH) in the buy/sell section.
You could try it and flip it if you don't want it.
It will be one of your quicker options.
I'm brand new to AR's - Moe2889 - 02-08-2021
I was checking out PF and like what they have to offer but unfortunately there out of my price range. I like the .5 moa barrels they have. Is there a little more affordable barrel with similar performance from other manufacturers?
I'm brand new to AR's - peak98 - 02-09-2021
Moe2889 Wrote:Is there a little more affordable barrel with similar performance from other manufacturers?
There is a price to pay for guaranteed accuracy, and its not cheap. I would recommend one of the Monster group buy barrels, or a BA. They will shoot ~1, maybe even better. Ring everything you can out of it and decide if a primo barrel is actually worth it for your needs.
peak98
I'm brand new to AR's - Newguy - 02-16-2021
I have a PSA 20, Larue 18, Grendel Hunter 20, and a SOLGW 16. My favorite for knocking around is the 16 its just handy. My SHTF choice would be Larue its built like a tank. For accuracy they all shoot fantastic. The PSA is fantastic at any price, its reliable accurate and I have every confidence it will do everything the more expensive brands will do.
That said you can get the Larue Ultimate Upper kit for under $800 and it has everything you need minus the lower receiver. Youll also be getting one of the best triggers out there included in the kit. Worth every penny in my opinion. Especially with the price hikes PSA has had and some of the rumors Ive read on Reddit about some of the custom builders lately.
If you have a little bit of mechanical ability and YouTube you can easily put one together yourself!
Im considering selling my Grendel Hunter complete upper if youre interested. I just dont use it and I have a 12 barrel from the group buy on the way. Message me if youre interested. It shoots lights out!
I'm brand new to AR's - A5BLASTER - 02-16-2021
Moe2889 Wrote:I was checking out PF and like what they have to offer but unfortunately there out of my price range. I like the .5 moa barrels they have. Is there a little more affordable barrel with similar performance from other manufacturers?
No.
In the end run, your not going to get a rack grade barrel to compete with a custom. True they might both shoot sub moa at 100 yards, but it's when you go longer distance are year up the barrel with multiple shots quickly when you see the custom barrel out do a rack grade barrel.
I'm brand new to AR's - KarlHungus - 02-16-2021
Moe2889 Wrote:Hi I'm looking to put together my first AR build. I chose to go with 6.5 grendal for my first AR. I'm new to ARs period. I already got a lower getting ready to ship so I'm looking for uppers now. I'm looking for a upper thats accurate and reliable. Not looking to have malfunctions the first time I take it out. The brands I know about are PSA Grendal Hunter Alexander Arms and Odin Works. I know AA and Odin Works would be the top tier uppers. My question is what upper is accurate and basically guaranteed reliable? Does barrel length play an effect? Most 18 inch uppers ive seen have the adjustable gas blocks and I didn't really see those on the other length of barrels.
Others might disagree with me on this, but I would not recommend going with 6.5 grendel for your first AR build. Yes, it is my favorite caliber. I have two rifles chambered in it, both built with premium parts. Both had cycling issues. It's a finnicky caliber sometimes to get running, especially in comparison to 5.56. That being said, 6.5 is a superior caliber once you get it to work. And I know of plenty of people who did cheaper builds than I and had zero issues. Luck of the draw, I guess.
If you are dead set on doing a Grendel build for youR first AR, ask yourself what you're going to be doing with the rifle. Do you want to shoot targets at 1000 yards? If so, 18" is probably a good bet, though it's doable with shorter builds. Is this a defensive carbine? If so, I'd recommend going shorter. My 12.5" Grendel is by far my favorite rifle. It has serious power even out past 500 yards, but it's still light and short enough to navigate easily around obstacles. It has an adjustable gas block, a full auto carrier, and a heavy weight JP silent captured spring. I run mine suppressed. If you plan on doing the same, shorter is better (unless this is a prone or bench only gun) because cans add length and weight in the worst possible spot (off the muzzle).
Personally, I would go with a shorter build. 16" or less. The AR excels at being a lightweight, ergonomic platform that is easy to accessorize. Optics, lights, lasers, and bipods all add weight (and the first two are essential in my opinion), so saving lbs at the expense of slightly lower velocities is more than worth it. Just my opinion.
I'm brand new to AR's - LRRPF52 - 02-17-2021
There are a ton of people who have built Grendels for their first AR-15.
The formula for success is not guesswork, and is well-known by those willing to do the research on what it takes to make these things run out of the gate.
Quality parts selection is the first step, preferably with as many parts from under the same roof as possible.
Hard to go wrong with the LaRue UU Kit, especially if youre just starting out.
I'm brand new to AR's - KarlHungus - 02-17-2021
Respectfully, I disagree. I went with one of the most highly touted manufacturers on this site, Precision Firearms, for my second Grendel upper. It didn't work until I switched out the bolt with another rifle's. Now its true, you can have headspacing issues with any rifle, but I have never had a problem getting any of the 5.56 AR's I've built to run. Both Grendels I own (one from parts, the second from PF) were finnicky. Add in magazine issues (everyone here likes E Landers, my guns prefer c-products), and you can see why people have issues with the caliber in an AR platform.
This is not to say that it can't be done. It can - both of my rifles run just fine now. But it is trickier, and I'm not sure I'd recommend it to a first time AR builder.
But that's only part of my reasoning. The main reason is that right now, and for the forseeable future, 5.56 is more common. When this madness passes, and it will, it will be much easier to get ammunition and parts for a standard 5.56 AR.
I am not urging Moe to stay away from Grendel AR's. I just think he would be better served to start with a 5.56 one, and build a Grendel later. Then again, perhaps he's on a strict budget, and can't do both, and he really likes this caliber (who doesnt?). In that case, he's come to the right place. People here are very helpful, and while he may have some issues initially, he will ultimately end up with a fine, reliable rifle in what I consider to be the best intermediate caliber out there.
Sorry, didn't mean to start an argument.
I'm brand new to AR's - fabbrisd - 02-17-2021
If the OP is planning "To Build Because You Enjoy Building" - then of course - build the Caliber you admire and enjoy the Build-Experience..
If the OP is planning " To Build To Shoot" - different kettle of fish - since you need to consider what type of shooting you enjoy most - and how much ammo you need to feed your intended Beast and what what kind of Ammo Barn you want to own.
I am not a re-loader - on the Grendel side - my Grendel Barn is about 800 rounds for my AR - but with today's Scarcity/$3+ market price for decent replacement rounds - my two best recent Grendel Investments has been (1) my CVA/Bergara Single Shot (which is absolutely b*tchin One-Shot-At-A-Time) mod'd with Brace Adapter & forged aluminum rail - and (2) upgrading and filling out my gaggle of Nikon scopes as I consider my next move "up" probably Nightforce or leaning towards classic Swarovski
If I was to Build-To-Shoot-Today - there is no shame is 556 - whether scrounging ammo Right Now - or for this Next Year - a bit more fish in the pond w/556
I'm brand new to AR's - Moe2889 - 02-17-2021
Nothing against 556 I shoot it all the time. My brother's have ARs. I went down the AK route. But I do want a 6.5 Grendal. I ended up ordering a 18 inch upper from odin works. And my main concern is the function. I'm hoping the upper is gtg from the start. What I'm not sure about is the buffer and spring which weights to go with. And also I heard sometimes AR grendals can be mag picky. How are the asc mags? I know it's a process with this caliber but I do want the AR grendal. I plan on making it a bench gun.
I'm brand new to AR's - KarlHungus - 02-17-2021
Moe2889 Wrote:Nothing against 556 I shoot it all the time. My brother's have ARs. I went down the AK route. But I do want a 6.5 Grendal. I ended up ordering a 18 inch upper from odin works. And my main concern is the function. I'm hoping the upper is gtg from the start. What I'm not sure about is the buffer and spring which weights to go with. And also I heard sometimes AR grendals can be mag picky. How are the asc mags? I know it's a process with this caliber but I do want the AR grendal. I plan on making it a bench gun.I understand the rationale, and it makes more sense to me now that I know you have a (hopefully) reliable AK, so you're good to go for a defensive carbine already. An 18" Grendel will make for a great bench gun. Odin Works has a good reputation. If there are issues, they should take care of you if it's something the guys here can't help with over the net.
Is the gas block adjustable? And what weight is the carrier? I can tell you that my 18" Grendel runs pretty well now with a standard weight rifle buffer and a full auto carrier. When I ran it with a lightweight buffer, I had problems. On my 12.5" build, I use a heavy buffer (it's a JP Silent Captured Spring assembly, but the weights in it probably correspond to a H2 or even H3 buffer), as well as the full auto carrier. That gun runs very well now.
As far as mags go, my 12.5" will run with ASC mags just fine. But yours might have issues. The E Lander mags are higher quality, but they gave me problems in my 18" build more often than the cheaper ASC mags. But that seems unusual based on what I've read. Most people will push you towards the E Lander mags. Good luck, and let us know how it turns out.
I'm brand new to AR's - Moe2889 - 02-19-2021
Yeah I don't go through too many malfunctions with my AKs. Actually never really lol. But I'm happy about what I'm getting and Odin already shipped the upper so can't wait to get it. Just a few more pieces to get then put it all together. Plus I'm on the ammo hunt now. Wish me luck on finding some.