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Game theory - Lemonaid - 12-27-2020
First off, if this thread evolves into something that should not be on the forum, by all means remove it and my apologies to all. Point me to a good site for this kind of stuff if you know of one.
In the event of a "civil war" or armed conflict, armed protest, or such like, what will the sides look like as far as personnel, organization, communications, weapons, equipment, training, and logistics and supply.
To simplify a bit, say there is Team T and Team D. What does team T bring to the conflict and what does team D bring. How would in theory the conflicts go, progress, conclude. What outside players would/could get involved and the likely outcomes if they do?
I'm just sort of brainstorming of what might happen and the capabilities of those involved.
Game theory - grayfox - 12-28-2020
I for one, don't have any answers, mostly questions I guess...
But I'll follow with interest.
Game theory - JASmith - 12-28-2020
This is an ugly topic, but discussing may have some value.
The best place to start is to look at history, starting with our Revolutionary war. Who were the players? Who were pulling levers behind the scene prior to openly siding with the Americans?
Then fast forward to our civil war, the pattern was similar except that the Brits were quietly siding with the confederates.
Then pick almost any successful armed insurrection through to the Russian revolution where we Americans were players.
Malaysia, Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodiaa saw similar open and clandestine players.
The current conflicts follow the same pattern.
Indeed, there is a high likelihood that technically astute foreign players are actively planning, training, and supplying at least one of your hypothetical sides.
Bottom line, one hopes that our domestic law enforcement is willing and able to focus on preventing a multi-sided armed conflict on our soil. If not, it will be bloody and a lot of innocent and good people will perish.
Game theory - Lemonaid - 12-28-2020
In an imaginary scenario to help identify the players, say team B is illegitimately in charge of the government and orders it's citizens to hand over their AR style rifles and magazines, just like what happened with the bump stocks, no recompense just hand them over or go to jail.
Who would enforce this, The ATF? Local law enforcement? State agencies?
Now if the citizens resist with force of arms, does the FBI or other federal agencies come in play?
If the conflict spreads nation wide and team B orders the Military to enforce it's will, would they take a side or be neutral?
Would this be a state vs. state thing?
Game theory - VASCAR2 - 12-28-2020
Pay enough money and the desire for authority will get people to do the dirty work. Prime examples KGB or Nazi SS/Gestapo. Outside forces like the Blue Helmet UN troops are a possibility. There will be a lot of nations sitting on the sidelines watching the outcome. World domination is the goal and the US Constitution and free people stand in the way of that objective. The monetary system and the US Dollar are under attack as it is an impediment to the globalist.
As long as free people have honest elections we have a chance to keep control but once the people have no say who make the laws it can get ugly. Local control has been lost to the large city politics where voting precincts are manipulated to control the vote. The manipulation of Congressional districts in the State and Federal government have been manipulated for more control in favor of big government. Its all about the money and power. The peasants have had to much power and the minority power hungry are openly pushing their agenda to gain complete control. Deception and propaganda are the tools of choice where the power brokers try to control speech and opposition.
There are no grass roots leaders stepping forward to organize the conservative right outside of national level politicians who dont want to risk what power theyve got. Im afraid the typical US congressman or senator have received so much dirty money and played the influence game they are all scared to death their gamesmanship will be exposed. This is why Politicians are against term limits. but even term limits breed work arounds where teammates swap off running for elections. This is the exact reason Trump as an outsider was such a threat. Stay in Politics and they dirty you up enough and attack your morals to where if you stay in the game your not a threat. If your not in the club you get no outside money or assistance to help win an election. You take outside assistance then you owe the party power brokers. You step out of line theyll make sure you dont win the next election. Your one vote is insignificant and the powerful will make sure no one listens to the opposition or they will set you up to where you are no longer a threat. Michael Flynn was a potential threat so they set him up because they werent sure what he would do.
Game theory - grayfox - 12-28-2020
Lets call team b team "covd" and I take this exercise as a purely hypothetical one.
For the "troops" on the ground (ie they will begin with existing LE) I don't think money will be the motivator. It will be something they have already bought into, like "national security" or "prevent city-wide riot", "just be safe first, then we'll sort everything out ok". Think post-Katrina, where they went door to door collecting/confiscating whatever arms they could find... (so I'm told, I wasn't there).
So, first, I think it will begin as a local event in one or the other of several Dimmm-enclaves, like LA (remember Watts), Detroit, Baltimore etc. Maybe Char-ville (who-ville)??
Second, it will follow Rahm-manual's quote, "never let a crisis go to waste" wherein the covd's either capitalize on a natural crisis (like Vwuhan) or create one (extreme food shortage). Char-ville was totally engineered/created, instigation, rioters and all; the "rioters" from both sides all rode in on the same busses.
Third, the media-news about such an event will be slanted at best, and crickets at worst. Hard for an opposition to organize without clear intel and good comm's on their side.
Fourth, the covd-media-news will conflate true oppo with radical-ones, so as to tarfether any honest protesters.
don't be ignorant of covds devices...
This is all hypothetically speaking, of course. academicexercise. yeahIknowthere'stypos...
Game theory - Lemonaid - 12-28-2020
Second Amendment
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.
The main purpose of the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution in my opinion was to prevent government tyranny. So exactly how does one exercise that right effectively?
I did a online search of what a well regulated Militia is. I copied this from here: https://americanmilitiaassociation.com/well-regulated-militia/
A "Well Regulated" American Militia is the entire population free to possess arms in order to secure the liberty of the place in which they live, in their own homes, in their communities across each State and ultimately encompassing the entire nation.
It looks to me that to resist tyranny (security of a free state) it won't be done acting as individuals. So what group should one join when the time comes it is needed to preserve liberty against a tyranny bent foe? Who do you want standing beside you when it come to crunch time?
Any ideas on how to organize local like minded people (your neighbors) into something that would be effective?
If you have already gone down this road, please share your results. I am going to do more research. Any good sites would be greatly appreciated.
Back to thread topic. I believe many local authorities would refuse to enforce blatant unconstitutional mandates. It's the Feds that would likely be used. Here is a link to how many are employed by the ATF. https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/atf-employees
If you tried to resist as a individual it would likely turn out like Ruby ridge or Waco Texas.
Game theory - LRRPF52 - 12-28-2020
Normally what happens with Marxist takeovers is the following:
1. Manipulation/rigging of the political transfer of power system, whether it be from Prime Ministers, Chancellors, or Presidents to the new leadership who have foreign backing.
2. Police and Military are ordered to maintain security on critical infrastructure while various forms of marital law are declared away from the centers of power.
3. Youth gangs fed narcotics and motivated by rape are armed, trained, and led by revolutionary cell leaders to begin a murder campaign in the countryside.
4. As the revolutionary youth gain more territory and recruits, they collapse on the cities.
5. Police and LE are ordered to turn in any personal weapons.
6. Revolutionaries are given official positions in the security apparatuses in military and police.
7. Anyone not loyal to the new regime in police/military is fired, imprisoned, and most are executed.
8. The new Marxist government dictates are laid out, which include banning crime.
9. In order to ensure no crime can happen, you must turn in your firearms and any weapons listed by the State.
10. After you turn in your weapons, please step inside these cattle trucks over there.
11. You will be taken to reeducation or interment camps, given uniforms, photographed for state evidence of the crimes eradication program, tortured until you turn over anyone else you know who has weapons, then raped, and executed.
12. Widespread youth education reforms pointing out the failures of their parents and grandparents, who were greedy and didnt plan for the future, gave them this burden that is now being corrected with Marxist principles. Everything from education, medicine, and housing are now declared free, as these are basic human rights.
13. Foreign sponsors of the insurrection have more freedom to maneuver in their regions if you were a military power that kept them in check.
Pretty standard stuff really.
Looking at the digital era with Maxist Sergey Brin of Google, they dont need you to confess to your sins as they already have all your 4473, CCW, DL, SSN, social media, Amazon ordering history, Credit Card company/bank info, text messages, friend networks, business/employment networks, resume, in a digital mosaic that is cross-referenced against their algorithms to see how compliant or resistant you are.
They will still torture you to check if youre telling the truth before youre raped and executed of course.
The revolutionary leaders in the mid-levels and cell leaders are eventually arrested, forced to confess to their crimes under torture, which is all recorded, then they are executed. This creates a leadership gap between the new dictator and the peasants. Mao did 2 campaigns of those, first after the cultural revolution, then again once he started to see the mid-level rising. Told the school children that their teachers are traitors to the peoples revolution, and to beat/arrest/kill them.
The way that Marxist revolutions actually go down is misunderstood by people and misrepresented, rarely studied. People dont learn how the mechanisms actually shift from the security apparatus being loyal to their original oaths, and think that the police and military just turn overnight somehow. There is a careful transition of power that builds with the small cells of youths in the countryside, who are loyal useful idiots for the rising dictator.
He who doesnt study history is condemned to repeat it.
He who does study history gets drug along for the ride....
Game theory - LRRPF52 - 12-28-2020
Lemonaid Wrote:Second Amendment
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.
The main purpose of the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution in my opinion was to prevent government tyranny. So exactly how does one exercise that right effectively?
I did a online search of what a well regulated Militia is. I copied this from here: https://americanmilitiaassociation.com/well-regulated-militia/
A "Well Regulated" American Militia is the entire population free to possess arms in order to secure the liberty of the place in which they live, in their own homes, in their communities across each State and ultimately encompassing the entire nation.
It looks to me that to resist tyranny (security of a free state) it won't be done acting as individuals. So what group should one join when the time comes it is needed to preserve liberty against a tyranny bent foe? Who do you want standing beside you when it come to crunch time?
Any ideas on how to organize local like minded people (your neighbors) into something that would be effective?
If you have already gone down this road, please share your results. I am going to do more research. Any good sites would be greatly appreciated.
Back to thread topic. I believe many local authorities would refuse to enforce blatant unconstitutional mandates. It's the Feds that would likely be used. Here is a link to how many are employed by the ATF. https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/atf-employees
If you tried to resist as a individual it would likely turn out like Ruby ridge or Waco Texas.
The 2A is a restriction on anyone from infringing on the rights of the people to keep and bear arms. The security of a free State includes personal security, family safety, neighborhood security, etc. So that includes deterrent against crime, local police trying to turn into piss ant dictators, State government out of control, organized crime, Federal tyranny, and foreign invasion.
The US government at all levels is supposed to promote the common defense by supporting all levels of society in keeping and bearing arms, by not infringing on that basic human right.
Instead of worrying about a piece of plastic furniture and trying to defend that, we should be well-regulating our local drone defense programs and coordinating our airborne ISR coverage with precision-guided mortars, heavy machine-guns, armored vehicles, crew-served weapons, anti-armor missiles, cyber defense infrastructure, back-up communications networks, closed-cell neighborhood watch programs, pedophile emasculator posses, neighborhood LE liaisons who check with magistrates and constables on how our citizenry is being processed according to laws when arrests or citations are given, things like that.
Instead, we go to school where were told when to line up, sit down, shut up, raise your hand, when to go to the restroom, bell rings, repeat........can I buy this firearm, can the barrel be this long, report to teacher/principle for wanting to be free, to be an American. Weve been conditioned to thinking that being free is a crime, and that being regulated by the State is the natural order of things.
As to ATF, its one thing to attack one group of people, but another to try to confiscate when at least 50% of LE will not comply.
This is why the Marxists have mastered the art of shaming people to turn in their weapons after the information ministry runs panic campaigns about the crime (that their own revolutionary youth cells are committing), complete with graphic photographs of the murders. If you shelter the people for generations from images of murders, death, and maiming, then hit them hard all at once with the images and tell them how they can do something about it by turning in their weapons, you see stacks of rifles in the streets immediately thereafter.
Once you get the people to voluntarily turn-in their weapons, then you can do whatever you want. There is no need for an ATF. They will seize the ATF records, then execute the tiny population of 2,597 ATF special agents from the ground-up. Their own supervisors will help with the arrests and documentation to save themselves, before they are all finally done the same way. This is how Marxist revolutions normally process the existing state security apparatuses. Any internal security organizations are replaced with die-hard communists that have proven their loyalty, then they are executed a few years later since they know how it was made to work.
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Game theory - grayfox - 12-28-2020
Several of the links in the AM assn page are of questionable source/motive, dailykos, hartmann, snopes, wiki anything - all left-leaning and not exactly objective, original-constitutional thinking sites IMO. So be careful.
I wonder whether the 1903 Act is considered by the courts to be the implementing act of the 2A preamble...
I couldn't find much, again - objective- on either the well-regulated term or on the 1903 act. There is one printout of it (the law) I started to read through. It divides militia into Regulated (as in Natl Guard et al) and Reserve. I don't know if the 1903 act has been handled in court system, and afaik it hasn't been declared unconstitutional........... Regulated portion of militia can be supplied with rifle arms by the US, still owned by US, but handled by the militia's, not paid for by the state; they are on loan to the state. Just talking about what I saw in the text of the Act, not my opinion one way or the other, and there may be other factors in play via other laws or court decisions I don't know of.
So if you follow the logic of this 1903 act, the enforcement would start out via the National guard, called up by the President.
Here's a random thought: do we automatically assume that the phrase "keep and bear" necessarily implies ownership? Maybe it just allows for possession and carrying... regardless of who actually owns it... just wondering here.
More questions than answers.
Game theory - LRRPF52 - 12-28-2020
If you dont control ownership, then keeping and bearing can be dictated by someone else, which is contrary to natural law.
The right of self-protection is inherent to being alive, not granted or restricted by any other man. This is the dominant thinking from the Founders.
The moment another man inserts himself into how or whether you keep and bear, the road to tyranny is upon you.
Game theory - Lemonaid - 12-28-2020
Great info LRRPF52, thanks! I think I am seeing "6. Revolutionaries are given official positions in the security apparatuses in military and police."
happening now but it's big tech personnel, big social media agents given high government positions. Scary times!
Game theory - grayfox - 12-28-2020
LRRPF52 Wrote:If you dont control ownership, then keeping and bearing can be dictated by someone else, which is contrary to natural law.
The right of self-protection is inherent to being alive, not granted or restricted by any other man. This is the dominant thinking from the Founders.
The moment another man inserts himself into how or whether you keep and bear, the road to tyranny is upon you.
I think I could go with this, in other words, if a third party has some ownership interest then they can limit the "keeping" and/or the "bearing", which contradicts the "shall not be infringed" part. We should not expect a self-contradictory amendment.
Game theory - Sinclair - 12-28-2020
LRRPR52's dialog is a summary of the playbook that the Communist used to take over the Chezkovokian Republic in the late 40's and early 50's. The "protest" in Seattle and other places are just the beginning of the armed insurrection that will come to allow the "NWO" to make sweeping changes limiting our freedoms to protect us from ourselves. Beware guys, the fat lady has not sung yet, but the list of options is getting shorter everyday. Fight with honor for freedom, or submit in shame and die a slave.
I am not advocating armed insurrection but, let me be clear on this, talk is cheap, but actions speak loader than words. We, the veterans here, fought in the bloodiest war in history. Between Winston Churchill's "Iron Curtain" Speech in Missouri and Ronald Reagon's "Mr Gorbachov, tear down this wall" speech in Berlin, somewhere around 250 MILLION people died resisting the spread of communism after WWII and now we have politicians in Washington determined to turn the USA into another failed communist country. I am a tired, sick, crippled old man, but I will be damned if I will give up my guns to be starved to death as a slave in a Gulag, or let them take me out on some lonely road and put two into the back of my head. To paraphrase Patrick Henry, I prefer death as a free citizen to life as a slave.
I am not a fool, my physical appearance does not command the respect necessary of others to be a good leader but, I have been a warrior all my life and I will fight and die, if necessary, to defend all freedom loving people in the USA.
Game theory - Lemonaid - 12-28-2020
Vascar2, agree with a lot of your post, especially "There are no grass roots leaders stepping forward to organize the conservative right" If we could copy how the tea party movement was born, organized, spread and grew and applied it to our current situation that might just work. More research is needed.
Game theory - Sinclair - 12-29-2020
Vascar2: I can do research on the internet, if I had suggestions to get me started. I agree with Lemonade on your post. I wish that I could express myself so clearly.
Flynn was a threat same as JFK. We are dealing with ruthless people, drunk with power and the quest for more money. The Deep State elitist have no morals outside of embracing whatever evil that will get them what they want.