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Simple Minded improved group size recording - Lemonaid - 11-14-2020
Kicking around a better method of evaluating loads for accuracy. An easy way to account for 5th shot syndrome (4 nice shots in .250 and the 5th opens it up to 1.3 inches). A quick net search got me this link. https://bisonballistics.com/articles/optimal-group-size-for-rifles. The Radial Standard Deviation method would be great, those that use it please comment on how you like it and how you record the data to compare your loads.
My Simple Minded method is to use a clear template with circles lines like a target, say .5 inch center and .5 between circles and scored like a target, 10 points for each shot inside the center circle, 9, 8, 7, etc for shots that land in the corresponding outer circles.
Place the template on a five round group for max score, record the total for easy comparison.
Suggestions? Helpful criticisms? Better ideas? All welcome!
Simple Minded improved group size recording - StoneHendge - 11-14-2020
I'll still tense up my grip after seeing 3 bullseyes. Or if I focus on relaxing my grip, I'll forget to load my bipod.
Simple Minded improved group size recording - Lemonaid - 11-14-2020
StoneHendge, how can you tell if that "Flier" is from you, the equipment or a load result?
Simple Minded improved group size recording - grayfox - 11-14-2020
LR55 says the good shooters can tell when they cause it..... I've concluded I'm not that shooter!!!
Well, maybe once in a while. but not consistently.
I find my eye wanders just at the last second, or blurs out or focuses off...
I think.
LOL!!!
Simple Minded improved group size recording - Lemonaid - 11-14-2020
grayfox, what do you do as far as evaluating that group for accuracy, do you measure the total group size, note a 4 shot size and a 5 shot size (that's what I've been doing) or something else?
Simple Minded improved group size recording - grayfox - 11-14-2020
I do have a poor man's method of telling a flyer.
A close group and one non-symmetrical outlier...
Or 3 in a decent triangle and 1 way off.
Or 2 and 2.
Anything basically other than a more or less symmetrical pattern, is something caused by the shooter.
3 for a triangle, 4 for a quadrilateral, (or triangle with 4th repeating one of the 3)
The reasoning behind it is, if we're talking about a purely mechanical system then any spread from a completely fixed position should be symmetrical more or less about a center. Or, if it's vertical stringing, then the load is not optimized and there's a velocity spread (harder to see at 100 yds and in, but the theory seems sound).
Horizontal stringing, unless there's a wind (I shoot indoors at 100 yd range) - caused by shooter wiggling the muzzle horizontally.
Anyway, just a quick and simple theory.
Simple Minded improved group size recording - grayfox - 11-14-2020
For evaluating, I usually am using a 3" diameter circle target, splatter-burst, with rings at 1/2, 1", and 1.5" radii. The center is 1/4" radius (1/2" dia) red dot.
So inside the 1" circle= 10, inside the 2"=9, inside the 3"= 8. And inside the 1/2" red dot = X. Add up the 3 shots, for me I like to see a score of at least 27=28.
If the bullet radius (punched-paper) is touching the ring/on boundary give it the higher score. If it's just the splash then it stays in the outer region.
I don't get 30 a lot but can do a lot of 28's, 27's. If it's less than 27 then either I've goofed or the load doesn't work as it should
I use 3 shots b/c in hunting I'm likely to get at least 2, so I go one more.
In case of a "tie" then count if there are any X's.
Simple Minded improved group size recording - Lemonaid - 11-14-2020
All good stuff grayfox, and thanks for the info but when you want to know is load X better than load Z and five other recorded loads, what measurements determines the winner? A five shot .950" symmetrical group or a .500" 4 shot/ 1.20" 5 shot group?
Ah, posted before seeing what was there from you. Ignore. Thanks, sounds like a good system.
Simple Minded improved group size recording - LRRPF52 - 11-14-2020
Its one of the reasons I shoot my groups fast on a cadence.
I remember the first time I saw a guy from the Army Marksmanship Unit do it at Fort Benning in 1994.
I had never seen someone shoot so quickly, so confidently, with such results (tight cluster).
I kinda forgot about it for many years and then found myself doing it the older I got.
It just feels like there is more opportunity for me to deviate from the fundamentals when I try to take my time.
I can still take my time and get good results, but it just feels right to me to shoot a cadence now.
Simple Minded improved group size recording - StoneHendge - 11-14-2020
Lemonaid Wrote:StoneHendge, how can you tell if that "Flier" is from you, the equipment or a load result?
It's always the fourth. Once I get it out of the way, the fifth goes back where it belongs.
Simple Minded improved group size recording - JASmith - 11-14-2020
LRRPF52 Wrote:...
I had never seen someone shoot so quickly, so confidently, with such results (tight cluster).
I kinda forgot about it for many years and then found myself doing it the older I got.
It just feels like there is more opportunity for me to deviate from the fundamentals when I try to take my time.
I can still take my time and get good results, but it just feels right to me to shoot a cadence now.
twould interesting to try that with a TC Encore. A bolt gun would be easier.
Nonetheless, the principles of shooting quickly to keep winds as consistent as practicable and not spending time checking thr target apply and might help us AR-challenged shooters too.
Simple Minded improved group size recording - Sinclair - 11-14-2020
StoneHendge Wrote:It's always the fourth. Once I get it out of the way, the fifth goes back where it belongs.
Yes, the fourth round jitters. I have them as well. Lr52's cadence shooting sounds worth a try. I have always tried to be slow and methodic, but these days the longer that I take to fire a shot the more likely that it is going out into the weeds!
Simple Minded improved group size recording - StoneHendge - 11-14-2020
This is some of my finest work. On this one I tried pulling the group to the center when releasing the fourth shot
[ATTACH=CONFIG]17124[/ATTACH]
This one was all about focussing on not having a death grip and forgetting about the bipod
[ATTACH=CONFIG]17125[/ATTACH]
The velocity on that one was something like 2602 with an sd of 1 (123 Scenar out of a JP22"). Unfortunately it was CFE at 95 degrees and it was shooting grapefruits at 78.
Simple Minded improved group size recording - Lemonaid - 11-14-2020
StoneHendge, your second pic captures the issue I'm dealing with, not why it happens but what to do with the data it generates, do you record it as a .250" group, throwing out the outlier or call it a .500" group and devalue the four shots in the tight cluster? The template scoring method I'm messing with would give it a 49 out of 50, or 49 4x. That would make it easy to compare it to other loads scored the same way.
Simple Minded improved group size recording - StoneHendge - 11-15-2020
TBH, I don't "record" it as either. I view shooting paper as a tool for load development and zeroing a scope. So in that instance I viewed it as the best load of the ladder (combined with the velocity data, the bullets ballistics and powders stability) for further exploration with the ultimate goal of finding a load that will give me the highest probability of engaging a target provided I can get stable and make the right wind call with a particular rifle.. I don't have any aspirations or desires in the paper shooting disciplines (you can see why!). That lower group was probably a bit of luck based on its subsequent performance. Although I clearly erred with the bipod on the fourth shot, the bullet was probably zigging while i was zagging on other shots.
Simple Minded improved group size recording - LR1955 - 11-15-2020
grayfox Wrote:LR55 says the good shooters can tell when they cause it..... I've concluded I'm not that shooter!!!
Well, maybe once in a while. but not consistently.
I find my eye wanders just at the last second, or blurs out or focuses off...
I think.
LOL!!!
GF:
Yes, they can tell because they have trained their eyes to see where the cross hair or sight was when the shot was fired. Calling the shot. The real good shots will tell you to within a minute. Even those who aren't that precise are pretty good at calling a direction with some distance.
The reason this stuff happens is because the shooter shifts his attention from what he needs to do for good performance to something else and blows the shot or shots. Most of the time it is because the shooter is looking for holes after each shot and as he sees a good group, he becomes more excited and thus shifts his attention from simply shooting the group to a demand to shoot a perfect group. As soon as he shifts his attention from what he has done to shoot well to a requirement to shoot well, he will shift from a relaxed and focused string to a tense string. Most of this is due to a fear of failure. Some is due to a fear of success.
Shooting quickly without looking for bullet holes is a real good way to solve this problem because the shooter tends to remain focused on his shooting as opposed to a result. Living in the moment thing. Also, my bet is if a guy does shoot to a sustained or rapid fire pace that he will be able to call each shot pretty well. If he knows he blew a shot, he can recover within a second providing he keeps shooting his string. If he stops and sees the shot is out, his attention shifts to failure and he will continue to fail.
Knowing you shot a bad shot but recovering instantly is a good thing to cultivate because you will shoot bad shots and having a way of keeping them from ruining your performance is a very good skill. I know they happen because I call my shots. I probably know I made a bad shot before the bullet gets to the target. I also know why so can either fix it or push it out of my focus to finish the string. Conversely I call good shots and know what they look like so I have a choice. I can put an image of the bad shot in my mind for the rest of the string or put an image of a good shot in my mind for the rest of the string. We have a choice of what goes into our mind. It is just as easy to put the vision of good shots into the mind as the bad ones so I choose the good ones.
Also, I think a guy needs to know why he is shooting for group. If it is because he wants to see how small a group he can get, he will shoot many groups and one will be the smallest. It will be an outlier but one will be the smallest. I shoot groups to see if my load is good enough for a specific task. If my shots go to call and hold what ever standard I need for a task, I stop load development and start practicing the task.
LR-55
Simple Minded improved group size recording - grayfox - 11-15-2020
This is why you are the master and I am the grasshopper!!!
Thanks for the instruction. Always good stuff to learn from.
Focus focus focus....
Simple Minded improved group size recording - Lemonaid - 12-14-2020
Adding this link that has very good info on this topic from Precision Rifle Blog. https://precisionrifleblog.com/2020/12/12/measuring-group-size-statistics-for-shooters/
It answered a lot of my questions! If you don't want to read the entire article, scroll down to the end where is reads "Summary & Key Points"
Simple Minded improved group size recording - BluntForceTrauma - 12-15-2020
Excellent article. Thanks for link!
Simple Minded improved group size recording - imaguy3 - 12-15-2020
I use the app "range buddy".. it measures that for you "mean radius". If you keep a log of data, for example during load development, you can just jot down the number. I find that usually the mean radius is pretty close to half the overall group size (makes sense right?)
I generally like doing it this way b/c in a hunting situation I don't like to have a mean radius over 3" for the given distance I am hunting, in other words when I get over 3" mean radius I will not shoot further. Keeping me easily inside the vitals if I do my part.
The picture below is the target I use. I made a cutout with a 1" center circle, 3" circle, and a 6" circle. Here i only have the center dot and 6" circle painted. The lines of the circle are 1" wide.
My Grendel for example... when playing with seating depths.
![[Image: SnMbkeY.jpg?2]](https://i.imgur.com/SnMbkeY.jpg?2)