Using a 6.5 Grendel Pistol in MN Deer Shotgun Zone

Using a 6.5 Grendel Pistol in MN Deer Shotgun Zone - Printable Version

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Using a 6.5 Grendel Pistol in MN Deer Shotgun Zone - JD6.5G - 11-01-2020

I was hoping to hear some peoples experiences with using AR pistols in MN's (or other states with similar laws) shotgun zone. I plan to hunt with a 12.5" AR pistol chambered in 6.5 Grendel this year.

So any input on your interactions with DNR/LEO on the subject or your experiences with 6.5 Grendel out of a short barrel taking deer would be greatly appreciated.

-Thank you

Using a 6.5 Grendel Pistol in MN Deer Shotgun Zone - dpete - 11-01-2020

What do the MN regs say? Any interaction with a warden who isn't clear on the law might be arrest first/find out about law later. He'd more than likely see an AR pistol as a rifle in a shotgun zone. A proper bullet out of a short Grendel is just as deadly if used at nominal hunting ranges.

Using a 6.5 Grendel Pistol in MN Deer Shotgun Zone - mtnlvr - 11-02-2020

I may use my 12" Grendel pistol this year in MN shotgun zone. I've been using a 44mag S&W revolver for the past 3 years. Had one run in with a CO after dropping a 14 Pt buck with it. With the Grendel, I plan on bringing paperwork for the brace, ATF letters from SB Tactical's website, and being very courtious but confident if I run into a CO. I'll also probably only use it from an elevated stand and on private land to reduce chances of any incidents.

Using a 6.5 Grendel Pistol in MN Deer Shotgun Zone - laxpatrick - 11-11-2020

Should be fine with it. Have a couple buddies who use AR pistols in larger calibers (458 SOCOM), perhaps not as rare as one might think. The get the job done.

Using a 6.5 Grendel Pistol in MN Deer Shotgun Zone - MaxSpede - 12-02-2020

Had a similar question regarding use of an AR pistol in Missouri's "Special Weapons" season. I just called up and asked. They were very nice, said they had considered the AR pistol use when debating the rules and that I was "good to go" with an AR pistol under the pistol regulations and could use any barrel length I chose.

Sound of takedown pins popping in and out as Grendel upper comes off rifle and locks onto pistol lower.....

Using a 6.5 Grendel Pistol in MN Deer Shotgun Zone - Bigs28 - 12-03-2020

When i did this in Florida i emailed fwc and had their response email in my phone stating they follow the atfs definition of a pistol and if my ar pistol met their definition it wouldn't be an issue in case i ran into any officer's in the field.

However it now seems that the atf is going after sb tactical and stated the brace i have was never submitted to the atf for approval so that pistol no longer exists.

Using a 6.5 Grendel Pistol in MN Deer Shotgun Zone - MaxSpede - 12-05-2020

Bigs28 Wrote:However it now seems that the atf is going after sb tactical and stated the brace i have was never submitted to the atf for approval so that pistol no longer exists.

Slightly different situation from mine. I have always run just an ordinary pistol buffer tube on my pistol lower. It was built a long time before anyone ever thought of a "pistol arm brace". I always figured "pistol braces" were on "borrowed time" with the ATF so I never made the conversion. I have always run a "rubber" crutch tip on the end of the buffer tube to keep it from sliding and falling over during storage per the appropriate ATF approval letter.

Using a 6.5 Grendel Pistol in MN Deer Shotgun Zone - Stolivar - 12-17-2020

do you have a overall length requirement

Using a 6.5 Grendel Pistol in MN Deer Shotgun Zone - sneaky one - 12-18-2020

JD6-Mn. has changed the laws on what can be used in rifle caliber weapons in the southern shotgun- muzzle loader zone. They will let you use straight wall rounds, like the .350 Legend,

.450 Bushy, .458 socom., etc.. They don't want long range calibers shooting across the farms down there.

Using a 6.5 Grendel Pistol in MN Deer Shotgun Zone - rebby - 12-18-2020

sneaky one Wrote:JD6-Mn. has changed the laws on what can be used in rifle caliber weapons in the southern shotgun- muzzle loader zone. They will let you use straight wall rounds, like the .350 Legend,

.450 Bushy, .458 socom., etc.. They don't want long range calibers shooting across the farms down there.

I'm not disputing this but I am curious of your source for this information. Here is what I can find;

From page 57 of the 2020 MN Hunting & Trapping Regulations book (underlined emphasis mine, to be addressed later);

Quote:Firearms
Firearms for big game must meet the following criteria:
At least .220 caliber and has centerfire ignition;

Loaded only with single projectile ammunition;

The projectile has a soft point or is an expanding bullet type;

Muzzleloaders (long gun or handgun) cannot be loaded at the breech (back powder revolvers are not legal for taking big game if they are loaded through the cylinder);

Smooth-bore muzzleloaders must be at least .45 caliber;

Rifled muzzleloaders are at least .40 caliber;

Muzzleloaders with scopes are legal during the regular firearms and muzzleloader deer seasons.

One can thus conclude, if we're using a centerfire firearm of some type (not a muzzleloader) with a caliber > .220 and load it with a legal projectile, we're good to go. Since a Grendel is .264 and uses the proper projectiles, there are no concerns there (a 6mm ARC, .243, also qualifies). Let's dig a little deeper.

Continued on page 79 of the same book (again, underlined emphasis mine);

Quote:Rifle/shotgun boundary
In the shotgun zone (see the 2020 Deer Season Area Map), deer hunters may use only legal shotguns loaded with single-slug shotgun shells, legal muzzleloading long guns, or legal handguns.

What I'm reading here is that in the shotgun zone we can use a single-slug shotgun load, a muzzleloader or a legal handgun. So... what is a "legal handgun?"

Page 24 addresses handgun possession while hunting (as part of the FAQ) but the focus here is on the nuances of if you can legally possess a handgun while hunting and doesn't address any other aspect of concern (especially in the definition of a handgun). As far as I can tell, the MN DNR never defines "handgun" in the regulations book or elsewhere and numerous conversations with DNR officials over the years indicate that the DNR uses the definition as provided by MN State Statute 624.712. The DNR admits to substituting "handgun" in their literature for "pistol," as defined in statute. Per 624.712 (underlined emphasis mine);

Quote:Subd. 2.Pistol. "Pistol" includes a weapon designed to be fired by the use of a single hand and with an overall length less than 26 inches, or having a barrel or barrels of a length less than 18 inches in the case of a shotgun or having a barrel of a length less than 16 inches in the case of a rifle (1) from which may be fired or ejected one or more solid projectiles by means of a cartridge or shell or by the action of an explosive or the igniting of flammable or explosive substances; or (2) for which the propelling force is a spring, elastic band, carbon dioxide, air or other gas, or vapor.
"Pistol" does not include a device firing or ejecting a shot measuring .18 of an inch, or less, in diameter and commonly known as a "BB gun," a scuba gun, a stud gun or nail gun used in the construction industry or children's pop guns or toys.

So based on what I can ascertain, in the scope of our discussion (a AR-15 based Grendel pistol) a "pistol" per MN State Statute 624.712 is any firearm designed to be fired by the use of a single hand with an OAL of < 26" (which is not outlined in state statute, thus we're forced to assume that ATF guidelines are being followed) OR any firearm designed to be fired by the use of a single hand with a barrel of a length less than 16" (rifle).

Per current ATF interpretation (this may change in as little as 14 days), a braced AR-15 is designed to be fired by the use of a single hand. The only remaining requirement per MN state statute is that the OAL be <26" OR the barrel be <16" (rifle). That's actually a trivial set of requirements.

I posed a couple of fictional "handgun" to the DNR in the fall of 2018 (in writing) and asked for an interpretation based on the above;

Bullpup style AR-15 design with an SBA3-style brace and a barrel measuring 18" having an OAL of 25.99".
Standard AR-15 design on an extended receiver (stay w/me) with an SBA3-style brace and a barrel measuring 15.99" having an OAL of 48".
Standard AR-15 design on a standard receiver with an SBA3-style brace and a barrel measuring 10.5" having an OAL of 25.75".
Standard AR-15 design on a standard receiver with an SBA3-style brace and a barrel measuring 12.5" having an OAL of 27.75".

In all 4 cases, per MN state statue and the DNR hunting regulations, these are "handguns" and thus legal to use south of the MN Rifle/shotgun boundary. Notice; in none of my scenarios did I ever mount a VFG, this introduces more ambiguity/confusion than I wanted to present and, generally speaking, I advise that people avoid VFGs on pistols anyway and instead opt for an AFG instead (or, ideally, skip the *FG altogether).

Therefore, based on all the information that I've been able to gather, any AR-style Grendel build that has (an OAL <26" OR a barrel <16") AND is not an SBR, is legal to hunt deer with in the so-called MN "shotgun" zone.

Using a 6.5 Grendel Pistol in MN Deer Shotgun Zone - sneaky one - 12-19-2020

Thanks for the update- I was going from memory from a few years back.

Using a 6.5 Grendel Pistol in MN Deer Shotgun Zone - Spd522 - 12-21-2020

What you were told doesn't match what their regulations said. This is from their site.

The updated MDC definition of a handgun is, Any firearm originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one (1) or more barrels when held in one (1) hand, and having a short stock designed to be gripped by one (1) hand at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s), with a barrel less than sixteen inches (16) in length, measured from the face of the bolt or standing breech (excluding any muzzle device not permanently attached to the barrel), and an overall length less than twenty-six inches (26) as measured between the muzzle of the barrel and the rearmost portion of the firearm (excluding any pistol brace, muzzle device, or other firearm accessory not permanently attached to the firearm). The use of a pistol brace is specifically authorized, and a second hand may be used for support when firing.

Using a 6.5 Grendel Pistol in MN Deer Shotgun Zone - Spd522 - 12-21-2020

MaxSpede Wrote:Had a similar question regarding use of an AR pistol in Missouri's "Special Weapons" season. I just called up and asked. They were very nice, said they had considered the AR pistol use when debating the rules and that I was "good to go" with an AR pistol under the pistol regulations and could use any barrel length I chose.

Sound of takedown pins popping in and out as Grendel upper comes off rifle and locks onto pistol lower.....

What you were told doesn't match what their regulations said. This is from their site.

The updated MDC definition of a handgun is, Any firearm originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one (1) or more barrels when held in one (1) hand, and having a short stock designed to be gripped by one (1) hand at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s), with a barrel less than sixteen inches (16) in length, measured from the face of the bolt or standing breech (excluding any muzzle device not permanently attached to the barrel), and an overall length less than twenty-six inches (26) as measured between the muzzle of the barrel and the rearmost portion of the firearm (excluding any pistol brace, muzzle device, or other firearm accessory not permanently attached to the firearm). The use of a pistol brace is specifically authorized, and a second hand may be used for support when firing.

According to this, a 16" upper isn't legal and won't make the 26" OAL if you have an AR pistol with a buffer tube. This change in the regulations from last year is why I built my Grendel this year with a 12" barrel. It is barely less than 26" OAL counting the buffer tube. The brace and any muzzle device are not considered in the OAL of the pistol.

Just clearing that up for you so you don't get a surprise. I did what you planned last year with a 308 pistol. It isn't legal this year under the new rules. If I wanted to stick an 8" barrel on it to make OAL, I could. But the muzzle blast would be nasty and I don't know how accuracy would be with that short of a barrel.