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Upper for 24" Satern barrel - Printable Version

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Upper for 24" Satern barrel - plugneck - 04-22-2020

I have just purchased a 24" Satern cut rifled barrel, med/hvy contour. I was planning on installing it into a BCM M4 upper that I have on hand. Somewhere on this board or another I have read that I would need a heavier upper to get the most accuracy and to avoid poi shifts from loading the bipod. I find it hard to believe that 4" of barrel can make that big of a difference and as far as poi shift due to a bipod, the bipod is mounted to the handguard and is in the same position receiving the same stress irregardless of what length of barrel is installed (in my mind, anyway). For those of you with more experience than me, is there any reason not to use the BCM I already have on hand? If something else would be better to get the most out of this barrel, what would you recommend?

Upper for 24" Satern barrel - sbowhuntr - 04-23-2020

Use your bcm it will be fine.

Upper for 24" Satern barrel - A5BLASTER - 04-23-2020

With that long of a barrel, I would suggest putting it in a billet upper. The furged uppers are going to flex with that much weight hanging off the end.

Good luck.

Upper for 24" Satern barrel - biodsl - 04-23-2020

How much accuracy can you afford? Smile Have a read on this.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2018/01/gun-tech-how-to-build-a-truly-accurate-ar-platform-rifle/

Upper for 24" Satern barrel - sbowhuntr - 04-23-2020

biodsl Wrote:How much accuracy can you afford? Smile Have a read on this.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2018/01/gun-tech-how-to-build-a-truly-accurate-ar-platform-rifle/

Good read. Not too sure i believe you can do any damage to the inside of the barrel with a gas block tho. Maybe the hulk could but i cant foresee that happening with just a couple set screws.

Upper for 24" Satern barrel - plugneck - 04-23-2020

No one will be able to convince me my Satern/Liberty barrel is junk. It shoots right with my BA barrel. The 24" cut rifled barrel is listed as SAAMI spec, maybe that will appease the masses. I emailed BCM with that question and the reply was that all things equal due to the manufacturing process forged was stronger than billet but that billet receivers could be made stronger by leaving extra material on the upper. They then stated that they believed I would be satisfied using the M4 upper. I can and would use another upper to get the most from this barrel. Does the weight of 4" of barrel really make that much difference?

Upper for 24" Satern barrel - Mesa1978 - 04-23-2020

VLTOR MUR forged has been good for my 24" assemblies.

Upper for 24" Satern barrel - HuntTXhogs - 04-23-2020

BCM has a new enhanced upper receiver - try that

Upper for 24" Satern barrel - rabiddawg - 04-23-2020

I’ve never heard anyone say the product was junk.

The owners are flat out liars and will go to any lengths to save face. I’m glad I didn’t get caught up in that group buy mess and will never forget how they handled themselves.

Upper for 24" Satern barrel - LRRPF52 - 04-23-2020

If it was me, I would use a billet upper with substantial weight to it, but many of the early AA uppers with Satern 24" cut-rifled pipes used high quality forged M4 upper receivers that followed the TDP, but with relatively tight extension tunnels.

I used a Seekins Precision billet upper on my 22" Lilja fluted bull barrel build that complements the weight of the barrel well on the back-end with the receiver.

I personally like a really nice, tight fit between billet receivers with these heavier barrel profiles, but they aren't necessary.

I do think there is a level of inherent confidence I feel when handling a heavier rifle when it feels like one, solid piece.

My LaRue Stealth 2.0 complete 18" rifle feels like that, with no play or movement of the parts other than the floating firing pin and buffer weights.

You could install the barrel in the LaRue Ultimate Upper Kit for that kind of feel, mated with one of their lowers.

It just depends on your budget and what kind of value you want to retain with the build.

I would complement a high-end cut-rifled barrel with the best receiver set I could buy, with the best bolt and carrier group I could buy, a great trigger, and full accuracy build checklist.

I would not surround that barrel with lower-end parts if you can afford it.

If on a mid-range budget, it's still hard to beat the LaRue UU kit, especially after you sell the barrel it comes with. You get everything to complete the build with the option to get the stripped lower afterwards.

You would only need a different gas block and RLGS tube, assuming you have the larger gas block journal on the Satern pipe.

Maybe add the Charge Handle of your choice, a quality mount and glass, bubble level, with a quality bipod and you're basically done.

Upper for 24" Satern barrel - HuntTXhogs - 04-23-2020

I’ve used these upper receivers before , since they’re fatter they don’t transition visually as well to a handguard as thinner receivers and no dust cover or forward assist

BUT mass it has and rigid it is

You’re welcome Smile

http://www.jsesurplus.com/AR-15SBUBilletUpperwithoutSideChargingHandleSlotJSEEXCLUSIVE.aspx

Upper for 24" Satern barrel - plugneck - 04-23-2020

I have looked at those and almost ordered one. 20 years in the Marine Corps no FA or shell deflector seems like sacrilege. How is ejection without the shell deflector?

Upper for 24" Satern barrel - HuntTXhogs - 04-23-2020

I didn’t study the ejection of the SBU upper and can’t speculate on how a lack of a shell deflector changes things

What I do recall is that the rifle cycled and fed everything I shot through it and I never felt like I was missing anything

I had a Midwest Industries rail and the look was nice on the combo (receiver/handguard)

Upper for 24" Satern barrel - Red*Lion - 04-23-2020

A5BLASTER Wrote:With that long of a barrel, I would suggest putting it in a billet upper. The furged uppers are going to flex with that much weight hanging off the end.

Good luck.

You actually have that backwards. Forged is stronger than billet and would be a better choice. Maybe you were thinking of "cast" versus billet?

Upper for 24" Satern barrel - A5BLASTER - 04-24-2020

Red*Lion Wrote:You actually have that backwards. Forged is stronger than billet and would be a better choice. Maybe you were thinking of "cast" versus billet?

LMAO. Bless your heart

Upper for 24" Satern barrel - js8588 - 04-24-2020

A5BLASTER Wrote:LMAO. Bless your heart

How about we put it this way: Oz for oz, Forged is stronger than billet. Since billet is usually at least 25% heavier than forged & forged is <25% stronger, billet usually ends up being "stronger" (what we really mean here is more rigid) than forged. There. Everyone happy?

Upper for 24" Satern barrel - rabiddawg - 04-24-2020

Everyone happy? That’s asking a lot Smile

For me, I will stick with billet over forged for my high end builds.

Upper for 24" Satern barrel - Red*Lion - 04-24-2020

A5BLASTER Wrote:LMAO. Bless your heart

You are entitled to be wrong.

Quote:Forging Is a Violent Process

Forged upper blanks are created by hammering the raw metal into a form that roughly resembles the desired receiver shape. The force of the repeated blows required to shape the metal to the form also has an effect on the composition of the metal itself. Metallurgists explain that the "grain" of the metal in forged pieces will be aligned. This creates a more uniform, stronger bond within the metal of the forged blank than exists in the raw materials of a billet upper. It takes less time to form a forged upper blank and complete the machine finishing than it does to machine a billet upper from start to finish. This makes it easier for manufacturers to offer forged uppers to consumers at an attractive price.

https://blackauratactical.com/blog/billet-vs-forged-ar-upper-receivers/

Quote:Metallurgists agree that a forged piece of aluminum is stronger than cast or billet. The reason being, when the material is shaped under pressure, its ‘grain’ follows the same shape as the part. As a result, the product manufactured is stronger due to the continuous grain characteristics allowed by the forging process.

https://www.ammoland.com/2014/08/ar-rifle-lower-receivers-cast-vs-billet-vs-forged-aluminum/#axzz6KZrXO4vA

Upper for 24" Satern barrel - HuntTXhogs - 04-26-2020

How about fat billet versus standard thickness forged ?

Billet it is then ....

Upper for 24" Satern barrel - LRRPF52 - 04-28-2020

I have yet to see a billet upper shear off the pivot pin or Takedown pin lugs.

I have seen that happen on multiple 7075T6 forged uppers and have one that a LGS broke and gave me, though I've never done it myself since I don't use the type of upper receiver Panther Claw-type tool that is notorious for it.

Under abusive high volume fire, the type of metallurgy used in an upper receiver, whether forged or billet, has not manifest itself as to which one is superior until you have a catastrophic malfunction due to an ammunition fault.

The thinnest billet upper I've seen take a catastrophic malfunction was a 2A Armament someone posted up.

It fared better than any forged upper has.

While the forged upper grain structure is compressed and flows with the forging dies, they are always finish-machined of course.

If you've ever seen a forged blank upper receiver, it's just a solid hunk shaped like an upper, but without any cutting operations done to it yet.

[Image: ?u=https%3A%2F%2Fadvancedautomotion.com%...f=1&nofb=1]

Once you do the finish machining on an upper, there are some very thin areas up front above the barrel extension tunnel and you've cut into the integrity of the forging with multiple deep and exterior passes with a mill, all of which are CNC nowadays on a tight timeline for maximum output and minimum machine time. The receiver wall around the ejection port is also very thin, especially below the port, to the extent that you can easily flex it with your hand and break it if you apply too much pressure.

Where a lot of billet uppers have their benefits is in using more meat in those traditionally-thin areas.

In the case of the guy that ran some notorious ammo for kabooms in his 2A Balios Lite receiver set, there was hardly any damage. A lot of us expected that type of upper to fragment like an old Mk.II pineapple grenade like M4 uppers normally do.

Almost always with kabooms, you'll see the extractor peeled back, bolt lugs broken, sometimes the fake vismod barrel extensions will fail, the carrier will split down the failure nodes in the cartridge recess channels, and the upper will other split like a banana peeled in the middle, like an umbrella, or just will fly to the four winds if it's energetic enough.

Of course, the 2A Balios kb was just one sample size, but on heavier billet uppers when someone has had a kb, you see a lot more survive and live on to shoot another day once the bolt is replaced.

Since the OP is looking for a good match for a heavier barrel, I recommend a beefier billet upper from an upper end manufacturer with a reputation who uses Aircraft Quality 7075T6 and tighter-controlled billet stock. Not all billet is created equally, and there are several companies out there cutting corners by using 6061 because it machines so much faster and tool heads last longer. They can sell these for less and at higher volumes compared to 7075T6 parts.

Anodizing also plays a role in surface hardness, and many companies cut corners on anodizing, or don't have consistent anodizing. Contrary to popular gun counter claims, the Mil-Std Type III Hard Coat anodizing is a hard standard to maintain in the after-market, and many companies still don't fully understand the benefits of it. If they do, they often don't care and will accept whatever results they get from the anodizer they outsource to, since that requires its own industrial base.

All that said, most of my AR15s have forged receiver sets because I prefer lightweight fire sticks that I can shoot from alternate positions to prone or bench, carry them around all day if needed, and not lug around a beast of a rifle.