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+--- Thread: 108gr Lapua Scenar (/showthread.php?tid=20800)
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108gr Lapua Scenar - Second - 03-11-2020
I have tested a lot of bullets, but once again have I come back to this one.
My rifle that I use for all the data and info that I will post is a custom Rem 700SA.
This barrel is in HV-contour and in 1:8 twist Krieger. The length of the barrel is from boltface to muzzle 653mm (25,7")
The throat have been extended 2,5mm (0,09") from the SAAMI chamber "standard" so that I can load longer COAL witch give me more room in the case for more powder.
The distance to the lands = jump, is now at the start 1.0mm (~0.0393"). Have the correct COAL measurement at home, but the BTO for this with a Hornady 6,5mm insert is 46,4mm.
I also use a Aimsport Triton 42S silencer. MV and speed data is done with a Magnetospeed Sporter.
So the bullet is the Lapua Scenar 108gr.
Have used this bullet before in another barrel with standard SAAMI-specs. And it shot really great. After the Krieger was installed I went directly into testing heavy bullets in 140gr and 130gr to find a heavy bullet for long ranges. (Separate threads for these tests exist here on the forum if someone is interested.)
For this test I have started with the Vihtavuori N530.
I have done several test already, but I will post the different test here so there is some background to where I started.
In my shorter and standard Grendel I tested this bullet and this powder up to 27,0gr. But since I had a other powder that worked well, no more testing was done. So this was my starting point for this test with the Krieger. I knew that I could fit more powder in, but wanted to take it slow and work my way up with the loads.
So first test was done from 26,6gr of N530 and up to 28,2gr in 0,2gr increments.
And here result in a graph:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]15672[/ATTACH]
In this first test, I used a muzzle break and not the silencer. So the following test I have been using the silencer, so the speeds is not really good for comparison.
No signs of high pressure so for the next test, more powder was used.
Loaded from 27,8gr up to 28,8gr but now with 0,1gr increments.
Here the result from the second test in a graph:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]15673[/ATTACH]
Got some really high speeds on the highest loads, but no pressure signs. It looked to be a good speed node around 28,6gr and maybe around 28,3-28,4gr. I focused on those two charges but it ended up in a third test with loads from 28,2gr up to 29,1gr in 0,1gr increments. Pushing it really high with the 29,1gr but all cases inspected for high pressure.
Here is the result from the third test in a graph:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]15674[/ATTACH]
This test was a good confirmation that I did found a really good flat spot and node in the 29,3-29,4gr load. Also a higher node appeared at 29,0gr.
These two loads was the "center of attention" for the forth test. For the lower load 28,3gr was the center and loaded from 28,1gr up to 28,5gr in 0,1gr increments. The load 28,0gr was CBS and sighters.
On the higher node the load 29,0 was the center and loaded from 28,8gr up to 29,2gr.
Here is the result from the forth test in a graph:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]15675[/ATTACH]
Once again I got good info that I have found two good loads.
I have not yet done any shooting on the target for groups, since all shots have been with different loads. However, I had a target for other shooting left and for the lower testload on this forth test, the 5 loads from 28,1gr up to 28,5 was fired at this target. The goal was absolutely not to shoot any group, but this was the result on the target for this small ladder test:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]15676[/ATTACH]
There is four bullets in a line and the last bullet was on the right, and my fault alone.
So this gives great confident that the bullet and load can shoot.
For the next test, I have loaded 10pcs of the 28,4gr and 10pcs of the 29,0gr. I will shoot 5-shot groups a target and at the same time collect data for the 10pcs to get average speed and SD/ES.
This test will be done tomorrow, if all works well. So result will follow.
108gr Lapua Scenar - tdbru - 03-12-2020
well done Second.
-tdbru
108gr Lapua Scenar - Second - 03-13-2020
Went directly to the range after work yesterday to do the test for two loads on target, powder VV N530.
Range 97m (~106yrds)
Temp: +2C
Pressure: 973hPa
Humidity: 64%
Altitude over sea level: 300m (~984ft)
Two loads with 10 shots each.
Shot at target in 2 separate 5-shot groups. Shooting done prone with bipod and rear bag. Started with 3 shots for CBS and sighting.
For each load with 10 shots the speed was checked with a Magnetospeed.
Result from the chrono:
28.4gr of N530
Avg: 852 m/s (~2795 fps)
SD: 2 m/s (~6.5 fps)
ES: 7 m/s (~23 fps)
29.0gr of N530
Avg: 870 m/s (~2854 fps)
SD: 3 m/s (~9.8 fps)
ES: 9 m/s (29.5 fps)
Result on targets:
28.4gr group 1.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]15700[/ATTACH]
28.4gr group 2.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]15701[/ATTACH]
29.0gr group 1.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]15702[/ATTACH]
29.0gr group 2.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]15703[/ATTACH]
The absolute first shot on target No.1 with 28.4gr was the high left. After that all stacked well. Target No.2 with 28.4gr was shot directly after and the shift in POI is little confusing. Something happened.
The first shot on the target No.1 with 29.0gr was the flyer on the right but after that the group was good. The target No.2 with 29.0gr is nothing else than pure frustration....Fist two shots landed one to the left and one to the right. The mirage started to build up and I just slammed of the last 3 shots. Yes I know. I am immature.
The speed is nice and the data is OK.
I like the loads and the cases looked absolutely fine. No signs of high pressure. But still, the groups should have been better and the POI should not have shifted that much. The cases have however been fired many times >10 firings each. And I have noticed some signs of ware on them. Also is it very noticeable that the neck tension is shifting when the bullet is seated.
If the cases is a reason for the groups, I do not know.
What I do know is that I loaded up the exact same loads yesterday. 10 shots each and will on the next test redo the test on target.
Difference will be me for the most part. I will force myself to take it slow and really try to focus on the shooting.
108gr Lapua Scenar - Bobke - 03-13-2020
Seems like your better node is in between 28.1 and 28.5gr. 28.3 might be a place to play. POI is more consistent in that range. What are you doing to determine optimum loaded COAL or distance to lands? How long are you running these, or did I miss the detail? In my experience, Scenars are pretty jump tolerant. Might be worth further investigation trying multiple .003-.005 variations of loaded OAL in the 28.3 node from your current starting point.
Also, if youve got 10x firings on these cases and they havent been annealed, you may have some real variation of neck tension which might impact your results, as well. Primer pockets still tight?
108gr Lapua Scenar - Second - 03-13-2020
Bobke Wrote:Seems like your better node is in between 28.1 and 28.5gr. 28.3 might be a place to play. POI is more consistent in that range. What are you doing to determine optimum loaded COAL or distance to lands? How long are you running these, or did I miss the detail? In my experience, Scenars are pretty jump tolerant. Might be worth further investigation trying multiple .003-.005 variations of loaded OAL in the 28.3 node from your current starting point.
Also, if youve got 10x firings on these cases and they havent been annealed, you may have some real variation of neck tension which might impact your results, as well. Primer pockets still tight?
If needed, I might test a little more around the 28.1 to 28.5gr.
The next test with the two loads 28.4gr and 29.0gr will give more info on witch one of the nodes to focus on.
I edited my first post with info regarding jump for this bullet and load. I currently have 1.0mm (~0.0393") of jump to the lands.
I have a modified case and the Hornady COAL measuring rod that gives me the MAX COAL, all measured on the ogive (BTO), not the tip (COAL).
Regarding jump with the Scenar, I have another experience. And with the exact same bullet, 108gr Scenar. In my other Grendel barrel I shot these bullets with 0.2mm (~0.007") jump to the lands. And that shoot very well.
With this extended throat on the current Krieger, that would not work so great since the bullet is not seated enough if 0.2mm jump would be used. With the 1mm jump that I have now, I think that the bullet is seated 4mm in the neck of the case. So I did not wanted to go any closer to the lands as a starting point.
If I need to, I will of course test different seating depth for more tuning.
The cases have not been annealed, and for sure I have felt difference in the neck tension. Felt a little loose primer pocket on one of the cases when seating the primers, but it was still seating tight, but a little lighter than the others.
The cases might be one of the week links in this. The last cases was loaded yesterday for this second test. It might be the last run with them and I can take the newer ones for future tests and shooting. Have 100pcs that only have been fired a few times.
108gr Lapua Scenar - Second - 03-16-2020
Went to the range this weekend and did the second test on target with this bullet and N530 powder.
Two loads, same as previous test. 28,4gr and 29,0gr with 10 shots each shot in 5-shot groups at a target 97m (~106yrd). Prone with bipod and rear bag.
4 shots was fired as CBS and sighters.
Very nice winter morning with -8C temperature.
For this test, no chrono. Just shooting.
Target result:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]15734[/ATTACH]
First group of the day up to the left corner with 28,4gr felt great, and the group was great also. Very pleased with that.
Took a short break and then next group up to the right corner. First shot was the top left and then 3 shots grouped, and then last shot landed top right. This group is in many ways very similar to the second group shot from the previous test. A diagonal spread and the POI have shifted from the first group...not very happy with that.
The lower left group was shot next after a break and same pattern again. Fist shot landed high left, then 3 shots grouped well and the last shot landed high right. A short break to let the barrel rest a little and then the last group down to the right. I really tried to shoot this group good, but on target, not so good.
Some questions have been raised but not really sure how to attack them. Is the first top group just pure luck? Why do the POI shift that much? Is it me or the gun or the cases or...? I hope it is me, because then I might be able to do something about it. If it is the gun, or the barre, then I have a bigger problem. Either way, the cases that I have been using for this tests are now all been used so for future test will the newer cases be used that have less firings.
For the following test, the lower charge 28,4gr will be used. Maybe test a little more around that load with different charges, or maybe just load the 28,4gr and test more groups at target.
108gr Lapua Scenar - Lemonaid - 03-16-2020
Second, what is your barrel cleaning procedure? Do you clean all copper out before testing or just clean out carbon? How many rounds before it's time to clean? A easy test would be to clean the carbon with a patch or two between the first two groups and then not clean the next two.
You see where I'm going with this, the difference between the very good group and the others may be barrel condition?
The other thing it may be is a harmonic effect, test again with magnetospeed attached? More data is good!
108gr Lapua Scenar - Second - 03-16-2020
Lemonaid Wrote:Second, what is your barrel cleaning procedure? Do you clean all copper out before testing or just clean out carbon? How many rounds before it's time to clean? A easy test would be to clean the carbon with a patch or two between the first two groups and then not clean the next two.
You see where I'm going with this, the difference between the very good group and the others may be barrel condition?
The other thing it may be is a harmonic effect, test again with magnetospeed attached? More data is good!
I usually do not clean the barrel after each trip to the range. Maybe cleaning is done after 100-150 shots.
All cleaning is done with good solvents and Dewey rods. When I clean, I use both carbon solvent and copper solvent. Have Hoppe´s No.9 for powder/carbon solvent and WipeOut and Barnes CR-10 for the copper.
I might do that test, but it probably needs to be a bit warmer before I do that.
You might be right regarding the barrel condition.
Maybe do a good cleaning of the barrel and then test again. I have JB-pasta/Autosol also that I can use if there is need for it.
But it feels that the barrel is quite clean, and it should not bee worn out since it was taken down in the throat then the gunsmith worked on it for this Grendel.
Regarding the harmonic or affect from the Magnetospeed, I have done a adaptor so the bayonet from the Magnetospeed never touches the barrel.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]15735[/ATTACH]
108gr Lapua Scenar - Bobke - 03-16-2020
Im still liking your 28.4 node, given a more consistent POI than 29.0. Would play around with distance to lands there-maybe go +/- .020 of your current setup in .005 steps and see where youre getting best groups. Shoot 3 round groups and determine optimum COAL based on ogival distance to lands, not bullet tip, to mitigate any variation in actual bullet OAL, though Scenars are pretty consistent.
108gr Lapua Scenar - Second - 03-16-2020
Bobke Wrote:Im still liking your 28.4 node, given a more consistent POI than 29.0. Would play around with distance to lands there-maybe go +/- .020 of your current setup in .005 steps and see where youre getting best groups. Shoot 3 round groups and determine optimum COAL based on ogival distance to lands, not bullet tip, to mitigate any variation in actual bullet OAL, though Scenars are pretty consistent.
All measurements have been done on the ogive. The Scenars are pretty consistent, but they do shift in length.
All rounds are measured after the bullet seating and the difference in BTO are kept within 0.02mm (~0.001").
Have not really decided yet if I should test a little more around the charge 28,4gr, maybe go down to 28,1gr and load up to 28,5gr in 0,1gr increments and shoot on target.
Or if I test different jump first.
108gr Lapua Scenar - Second - 03-17-2020
Did the decision to test powder first.
Loaded up yesterday 5 shots each of loads from 28,1gr of N530 up to 28,5gr. Loaded in 0,1gr increments.
The plan is to shoot at target in a "Round Robin"-style at 97meters tomorrow after work. No chrono, just target.
Will be back with result.
108gr Lapua Scenar - Second - 03-19-2020
Rage trip yesterday after work.
I changed my mind regarding the chrono and used that also. Figured that since it do not affect the POI, it is better to use it and collect data at the same time since I am trying lower charges.
Used the newer brass for this test.
Jump to the lands is 1.0mm (~0.0393").
About +3C and a little wind from 10-11 a clock.
All shots were fired in "Round Robin"-style.
Speed results from the different charges. Have only collected the average data for this test. Powder as previous VV N530
1.
28.1gr
Avg: 844 m/s
SD: 3
ES: 7
2.
28.2gr
Avg: 847 m/s
SD: 1
ES: 3
3.
28.3gr
Avg: 848 m/s
SD: 3
ES: 8
4.
28.4gr (same load as I tested and focused on before)
Avg: 850 m/s
SD: 2
ES: 7
5.
28.5gr
Avg: 855 m/s
SD: 3
ES: 7
And result on the OCW target.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]15751[/ATTACH]
No.1 was the best for sure, and the last shot was of course the flyer on the left
No.2 and No.3 had the same procedure. First shot landed high right on both of them. Then 3 shots on quite the same POI and then one more high right. The No.4 was the first shot the low right, after that three of them landed around the same POI of No.2 and No.3. The No.5 was not nice at all.
Must admit that I was looking forward to find 5 small round groups on all charges. But that did not happened. And also, the charge 28.4gr that I thought to be a "winner" from previous tests did not shine at all.
But going forward. If I look at where the bullets have landed and the average speed, the load 28.3gr might be something to test different seating depth around. Or should I redo the whole test one more time to see if there is any confirmations in these results from this test?
108gr Lapua Scenar - Bobke - 03-19-2020
Appears 28.3 POI is very close to centered in between 28.2 and 28.4. Run your seating depth test, +/- .020 of current .039 in in .005 increments. You should see one or two stand out from the rest. Good work.
108gr Lapua Scenar - Jakal - 03-19-2020
Don't use new brass again, use the brass that has already been fireformed. By your 3rd ladder with the same brass, you will see the difference.
108gr Lapua Scenar - Second - 03-19-2020
Jakal Wrote:Don't use new brass again, use the brass that has already been fireformed. By your 3rd ladder with the same brass, you will see the difference.
My bad here on the brass.
The new brass is not NEW new. They are newer than the old ones.
The old ones have well over 10 firings and the newer have about 5 firings. So in my mind the newer brass is the new brass.
And that was why I called them the new brass.
108gr Lapua Scenar - Jakal - 03-19-2020
Gotcha:confused:
108gr Lapua Scenar - Second - 03-20-2020
Jakal Wrote:Gotcha:confused:
Sorry. A bit "overexplanation" on this.
108gr Lapua Scenar - Second - 03-20-2020
Since I am way to curious by nature, I will do another test with this bullet.
But with another powder.
I have used the VV N133 for this bullet before in my shorter Jury-barrel.
I tried this powder in that barrel up to 28.8gr. I did not found any advantage with a higher load and settled for 26.8gr that was my "pet load". But I also tried 28.2gr and different seating depths but that still ended up to me going back to the lower load at 26.8gr.
Now with this Krieger and the longer throat, I can with ease try a little more powder.
So for my next test, I have loaded the exact same charges and number of rounds with the same jump as I did with the N530.
This will give me a direct comparison between this two powders.
My plan is still to test different jump (if needed). But will do this test with the N133 first.
108gr Lapua Scenar - Lemonaid - 03-20-2020
Second, it looks like you are using the Satterlee 10 round load development method. What are your opinions on how it works for you?
I ask as Kelm has raised some points about possible shortfalls in testing that way and your charts look like his method might work better in your case.
I'm in the process of doing some tests as Kelm suggested and also the Satterlee way to see what works for me.
Link to my test that has a link to Klem's post.
http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?21308-Satterlee-10-Round-Load-Development&highlight=lemonaid
108gr Lapua Scenar - Second - 03-22-2020
Lemonaid Wrote:Second, it looks like you are using the Satterlee 10 round load development method. What are your opinions on how it works for you?
I ask as Kelm has raised some points about possible shortfalls in testing that way and your charts look like his method might work better in your case.
I'm in the process of doing some tests as Kelm suggested and also the Satterlee way to see what works for me.
Link to my test that has a link to Klem's post.
http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?21308-Satterlee-10-Round-Load-Development&highlight=lemonaid
Yes. I have used the Satterlee 10 round load development.
Have used this as a starting point and the ground foundation and thoughts that a speed node will give low SD/ES and at the same time a small group.
I have however NEVER only used 10 rounds. I have ALWAYS used a hole lot more or rounds. And that is mainly because I like the testing part of the load development. I like to gather data and build a solid base before I go to the target. This method have worked quite well. but in some cases not at all. And that is on the occasion where I have not found the node, when I think I found it. This have ended in my chasing my tail and trying several things at the same time and this have only give me problems. I like the idea of the Satterlee approach. And I like that I can start the load development without any targets and just shoot over the magnetospeed. It is a quick trip to the range and shoot a few rounds. This gives me a lot of data that I can put in a graph and analyse. And this have been proven a good approach, but also a total miss.
My personal problem here is that I have totally been a "speed freak" with the Grendel. I have pushed the Grendel to the limit to many times. And in this process it have been hard to use the Satterlee method because the result in the speed have been shifting a lot between the different tests.
So Yes, it have worked, but not all the time. And I kind of blame the chase for the speed.
Also, being a beginner of reloading, the Satterlee method is probably not the best way to small groups. And this tip was given in the Youtube-video with the "6,5 guys". And totally ignored by myself. I constantly learning, and getting better at the reloading process, but I have a feeling that this process needs to be quite stable so that the result is not affected by lack of experience. Reloading is for me fun and really therapeutic, but have caused several meltdowns also