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+--- Thread: Neck tension (/showthread.php?tid=20755)
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Neck tension - JCSC - 03-04-2020
Can the horde provide input on next steps in my reloading practices, as to promote more consistent neck tension.
I would like to add that I follow a strict routine of case preparation, as far as trimming, deburring and currently small base sizing with RCBS. I have only used my hornady once fired brass and I do notice that I feel some obvious resistance differences when seating bullets. I separate the brass usage and have 4-5 loadings on the last batch, which is when I started pondering next steps.
I do not anneal, measure wall thickness, turn necks or use a bushing type die, nor have I ever tried with any calibers I load.
What are the logical steps to take from here? The whole annealing game seems to be heavily debated and Im not investing in that equipment.
I make some good ammo in my opinion, but I would like to take my grrr loads a notch farther and see if I can get a little better accuracy. I guess its the logical progression in my reloading journey.
Neck tension - FRB6.5 - 03-05-2020
Since you mentioned not using a bushing type die, checking that your expander is smooth and not ridged with a bunch of machining marks is where I'd start.
Video that explains how:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaHrO4Rh7ns
Neck tension - FW Conch - 03-05-2020
Since You are consorned about neck tension, I assume You are loading for a bolt rifle ? I have gone to a Sinclair Mandrel neck sizing die. I have the option of .001" or .002" tension. I seat with a Lee hand press, and all seem very consistent. I am very pleased with the results.
Neck tension - drewsbow - 03-05-2020
have you checked your bullet diameter for consistency ?
Neck tension - centerfire - 03-05-2020
JCSC Wrote:I do not anneal, measure wall thickness, turn necks or use a bushing type die, nor have I ever tried with any calibers I load.
What are the logical steps to take from here?
Start doing those things.
Neck tension - Mad Charlie - 03-05-2020
centerfire Wrote:Start doing those things.
What he said....
Neck tension - Lemonaid - 03-05-2020
Part of this article is about neck tension, it may be of use. http://www.mssblog.com/2019/08/22/reloaders-corner-improving-velocity-consistency/
Neck tension - Cornbread - 03-05-2020
You can anneal brass with a candle. Slow but effective for small batches. Use Laupa brass the neck wall thickness is pretty consistent. Use a bushing die to set the neck tension you want.
Neck tension - Kswhitetails - 03-05-2020
centerfire Wrote:Start doing those things.
Yup. Annealez, $275 shipped from them. Pretty much all you're going to find as far as next steps to gain much if you're not going to turn necks and invest in a mandrel and seating die, and an arbor press.
There are lots of simple things you could do cheaply. None of those are as likely to bring the results annealing and mandrel usage will.
For clarity: I use Hornady FL dies, with the micrometer seater. I don't turn necks, or use a mandrel die, though this is my next investment most likely. I anneal with an annealez, and have found it to help my ES/SD numbers quite a bit.
My gas gun reloads aren't precision rifle loads. They are gas gun loads. I aim for MOA loadings that I can reproduce easily and in high volume while considering cost. I see most cases I reload somewhere around 45c per round, and can shoot moa all day.
Neck tension - FLshooter - 03-07-2020
I use a Forster micrometer seating die.And a CoAx press.One of the things I do for consistent neck tension is keeping all my brass uniform. I have a Wilson trimmer with a power adapter which I use a Black & Decker power screwdriver with. I trim every time before I reload.
I recently got an Annealeez machine. Not sure it helps with neck tension or with the accuracy. I got it so I can get more life out of my brass.
Neck tension - Happy2Shoot - 03-08-2020
I would set aside the small base die. Use a neck only bushing die to get you .003 under then use an m die or mandrel die to open it up to 0.002 under.
When cases get hard to chamber (after 2 or 3 reloads) use a body only die.
Neck tension - A5BLASTER - 03-08-2020
JCSC Wrote:Can the horde provide input on next steps in my reloading practices, as to promote more consistent neck tension.
I would like to add that I follow a strict routine of case preparation, as far as trimming, deburring and currently small base sizing with RCBS. I have only used my hornady once fired brass and I do notice that I feel some obvious resistance differences when seating bullets. I separate the brass usage and have 4-5 loadings on the last batch, which is when I started pondering next steps.
I do not anneal, measure wall thickness, turn necks or use a bushing type die, nor have I ever tried with any calibers I load.
What are the logical steps to take from here? The whole annealing game seems to be heavily debated and Im not investing in that equipment.
I make some good ammo in my opinion, but I would like to take my grrr loads a notch farther and see if I can get a little better accuracy. I guess its the logical progression in my reloading journey.
Is this for the ar platform or bolt action?
If ar platform. Your spinning your wheels chasing neck tension.
If a bolt action. Get a Redding bushing neck die and body die combo. Use the bushing that is 1 to 2 thousands smaller then a loaded round and use the body die to bump the shoulder 2 thousands.
I anneal my brass but I can't say one way are the other if that helps my neck tension.
Neck tension - JCSC - 03-09-2020
This is for an AR.
As I mentioned before, I havent taken my reloading past full length sizing. Why wouldnt consistent neck tension help accuracy in a gas gun?
Neck tension - Klem - 03-09-2020
JCSC Wrote:This is for an AR.
As I mentioned before, I havent taken my reloading past full length sizing. Why wouldnt consistent neck tension help accuracy in a gas gun?
Yes, I believe consistent neck tension helps accuracy, and is equally important in an auto loader as a bolt gun.
In an auto loader where the ammo is getting bashed about you need more tension to prevent the bullet being pushed back in or moving forward under inertia. If this happens, not only will the case/volume pressure change, but the bearing surface of the bullet shank is likely to change too. this means a change in starting and moving friction. I cannot see how any of this this won't affect accuracy.
I don't anneal but have tried it in the past but saw no improved results on the target. Maybe I was doing it wrong. Maybe it did improve results but I could not see it among the clutter of more influential variables (e.g. wind). Like 52 is saying, I do believe it helps prolong case life and depending on how much money you fork out for the kit has the potential to save money in the long run. It will help if finding cases for a particular caliber/brand is hard to find where you live.
Neck tension - tdbru - 03-09-2020
JCSC,
there are a bunch of F-Class midrange shooters at the club. mid range 600 yard because that's the longest we have. a bunch of them go to the southwest national though and shoot at 1K. the best of them win by x-count. they all shoot 200 at 600 yards. that's a 3" circle at 600 yards. they offer a precision reloading class once a year. i went with open ears.
1. same lot for everything. brass, primers, bullets, powder. of course not while working up loads and such, but once you find "the load" for your rifle, buy as much of the same lot number of everything as you think you'll need.
2. use one of those neck bushing type sizing dies mentioned above that use the various size neck bushings. of course most all these F-Classers are using bolt guns, but they are bumping shoulders and squeezing down necks just as absolutely minimal as possible. they do not use a neck expander mandrel common in most reloading dies.
3. they all anneal necks. they're striving for SDs in the low single digits. like 2 fps.
4. Lapua brass is popular. Peterson is gaining.
these guys try a bunch of various primer brands, brass. they mostly come back to Lapua brass. but Peterson is starting to pick up share. primers seem split between Federal Gold medal match, and russian primers. powders are mostly temp insensitive ones. lots of hodgdon products. the new IMR Enduron 4166 and 4451 are starting to see a bunch of use. H4350 very popular. so i'd look for temp insensitive offerings. i understand that Alliant now has a few too, as well as some new Winchester offerings. Unfortunately not a ton of temp insensitive offerings in the burn rate for 6.5 Grendel. I'm working with APPV which is NOT temp insensitive, but gives decent velocity, H4895, and Benchmark for the temp insensitive ones. for bullets, almost all have gone to Berger match bullets. there are also several top guys that use those boutique small lot benchrest bullets by individual makers. and a smattering of Sierra matchkings of some flavor and Hornady eldMs of some flavors.
their focus is on consistent everything. velocity, BC, etc. and they go to great lengths to insure it's all as consistent as possible. some guys even are using the prometheus. and most of them use the AMP annealer. talk about OCD. but they win big. usually the top 12 shooters each week are getting 200s (10 ring 6") and the top 6 are all between 16x and 20x. x ring is 3 inches across. two weeks ago one guy recorded his first 200-20x. I am NOT in that class. not even close. and with the way work goes i will likely never get the time to get that good.
but the reloading class was very interesting. runout measurements. jump / jam discussion. case neck uniformity. avoiding seating into the "donut". primer pocket uniformity, flash hole uniformity. humidity controlled reloading room (it does affect powder burn rate). they use special seating tools with springs and dial indicators to try and catch any case that has bullet seating into a case with a pressure that is different than all the rest (different neck tension). those "culls" are practice loads. and likely more accurate than anything i can load yet. and a 2 page discussion on chamber specs for most consistent accuracy. seems like they all run custom reamers on the best barrels they can procure.
anyway the point is, if you want super accurate ammo, all those PIA details that you don't want to deal with are what gets you from the 9 ring to 200-20x. i'm sure if there was a way to do it differently these folks would do it differently. they do experiment with any new gadget that comes out to see if it gives them a competitive advantage. so far, it's just as you'd expect. make everything repeatably consistent. what ever the effort or cost.
-tdbru
Neck tension - A5BLASTER - 03-09-2020
JCSC Wrote:This is for an AR.
As I mentioned before, I havent taken my reloading past full length sizing. Why wouldnt consistent neck tension help accuracy in a gas gun?
I'm of the mindset bushing neck dies should never be used to make ammo for the AR platform. So with that thinking all you have to work with is full length sizing dies.
With a full length die you get the amount of neck sizing it will give you and that's it.
So to me useing a bushing neck die on case's that will become ammo shot from a ar grendel is a waist of time and effort.
Proper load work up' s and playing with the seating depth to me will do more for your group size's and sd/es numbers then chasing neck tension in the ar platform.
In a bolt action in 100% in favour of it. I do it myself with my bolt grendel loads. But I just see it as waisted time and effort in the ar platform.
Neck tension - centerfire - 03-09-2020
I wonder if anyone has ever made a video about this subject?
Neck tension - Mark611 - 03-09-2020
https://youtu.be/hOzhm-ILyts
I use this Die with a Redding Body Die and get excellent results
Neck tension - JCSC - 03-11-2020
Just wanted to provide some feedback on this topic.
I annealed 100 pcs of brass at home with the burner and dark garage method.
I then loaded 50 pcs non annealed and 50 pcs annealed. I am going to test these with 120 gold dots and 8208. The brass used was hornady on its 4-5th firing.
The only thing I will mention at this point is the noticeable difference when seating these batches. The annealed seemed notably more consistent in both pressure to seat the bullet and final seating depth, in which I had about .003 variation across the batch of 50.
Next to see if they perform any differently, which I am not expecting any major improvement. At a minimum I have peace of mind that they felt more consistent.
Neck tension - Harpoon1 - 03-11-2020
JCSC Wrote:Just wanted to provide some feedback on this topic.
I annealed 100 pcs of brass at home with the burner and dark garage method.
I then loaded 50 pcs non annealed and 50 pcs annealed. I am going to test these with 120 gold dots and 8208. The brass used was hornady on its 4-5th firing.
The only thing I will mention at this point is the noticeable difference when seating these batches. The annealed seemed notably more consistent in both pressure to seat the bullet and final seating depth, in which I had about .003 variation across the batch of 50.
Next to see if they perform any differently, which I am not expecting any major improvement. At a minimum I have peace of mind that they felt more consistent.
Maybe I missed it earlier but, do you run your brass through an expander mandrel after resizing or just rely on the sizing die to adjust neck tension?