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Critter defense ammo - dblazevich - 02-28-2020
I hate asking the question "is X caliber good enough for Y animal defense" because there's no way to know for sure and the default suggestion is going to be a 12ga or 45-70, just to be safe. Bears have been killed by .380s and there are probably some dead bodies in the woods somewhere holding 45-70s.
So let me phrase the question this way: if you were in the woods with a 65 Grendel AR and a large animal charging after you - what ammo would you want in your gun to give yourself the best chance of survival?
I have bear mace, generally know how to avoid spooking a bear and how to react if they start being aggressive. My 65 Grendel is my "woods" gun when we go camping, shooting in the country, hiking around, etc - I don't think my chances of being attacked are high enough to justify getting some crazy bear-defense setup, but would like to have ammo that gives me a little extra peace of mind (even if it only raises my chances of survival from 1% to 2%)
Any thoughts?
Thanks
Critter defense ammo - grayfox - 02-28-2020
First question is, which "woods"? And, how far off-the-beaten-track? If in the Eastern US, that's one thing, if in Idaho/Wyoming, that's another... and if in Alaska, that's a whole beast of a different caliber.
Shot placement is of course, king! A "camp" 12ga would be nice no matter what...
But, I don't go with only a rifle into the woods, and don't recommend anyone else to do either.
Always, always carry a backup. And if winter camping, I wouldn't be having a semi-auto as my rifle-- lever or bolt-action for reliability.
a) in the Eastern US, a grendel plus a 9mm or .45 (Each of which is well-broken in) would do. A Grendel with Cxp2 ammo like the 123 sst, or better, will do its job on those style animals, even a black bear.
b) western US, depends if you're in grizzly country or not. If so, I would have any good centerfire rifle with Cxp2 or better ammo, plus a .45, 10mm or 41 Mag+ alongside. Rifle would be a 308-like or better, a magnum, with high-quality bullets for grizz areas.
c) Alaska, I would have a guide along, both of us armed as in b) or better, 2 are better than one in Alaska backwoods.
Critter defense ammo - grayfox - 02-28-2020
Forgot to add........ it also depends on what your AR "likes" -- if its not the sst, then there are other bullets that will work in place of it. An inaccurate rifle is not much more than a loud tomato stick.
Critter defense ammo - A5BLASTER - 02-28-2020
If it had to be a grendel in the ar15 platform. I would want the 127lrx.
Why because it's a all copper bullet and is going to penetrate like a 140 to 150 grain cup and core bullet would. It's all copper so it's going to hold toghter better as well.
And it can be ran mag feed for as many rounds as your mag can hold.
That's the best answer I can give to your specific question. Would it be the best choice I cant answer that because we don't have grizz in Louisiana but we do have black bear and my posted load will dead end a black bear all day.
Critter defense ammo - dblazevich - 02-28-2020
grayfox Wrote:First question is, which "woods"? And, how far off-the-beaten-track? If in the Eastern US, that's one thing, if in Idaho/Wyoming, that's another... and if in Alaska, that's a whole beast of a different caliber.
Shot placement is of course, king! A "camp" 12ga would be nice no matter what...
But, I don't go with only a rifle into the woods, and don't recommend anyone else to do either.
Always, always carry a backup. And if winter camping, I wouldn't be having a semi-auto as my rifle-- lever or bolt-action for reliability.
a) in the Eastern US, a grendel plus a 9mm or .45 (Each of which is well-broken in) would do. A Grendel with Cxp2 ammo like the 123 sst, or better, will do its job on those style animals, even a black bear.
b) western US, depends if you're in grizzly country or not. If so, I would have any good centerfire rifle with Cxp2 or better ammo, plus a .45, 10mm or 41 Mag+ alongside. Rifle would be a 308-like or better, a magnum, with high-quality bullets for grizz areas.
c) Alaska, I would have a guide along, both of us armed as in b) or better, 2 are better than one in Alaska backwoods.
You raise good points and questions!
South eastern woods. Appalachians. Have seen some pretty hefty black bears down here, but nothing near as big as Alaska / Rocky mountains.
Yes I keep a 45 or a 9mm handgun ready with Buffalo Bore outdoorsman.
My gun isn't the best with the SST, but it's definitely well within the realm of adequate.
Thanks for the feedback
Critter defense ammo - dblazevich - 02-28-2020
A5BLASTER Wrote:If it had to be a grendel in the ar15 platform. I would want the 127lrx.
Why because it's a all copper bullet and is going to penetrate like a 140 to 150 grain cup and core bullet would. It's all copper so it's going to hold toghter better as well.
And it can be ran mag feed for as many rounds as your mag can hold.
That's the best answer I can give to your specific question. Would it be the best choice I cant answer that because we don't have grizz in Louisiana but we do have black bear and my posted load will dead end a black bear all day.
I'll look into these as well. Thanks for the feedback!
Critter defense ammo - grayfox - 02-28-2020
Barnes also has some new 115 Vor-tx factory ammo that's available, for factory and for another all-copper that's a viable one IMO. Don't know if A5's 127's are factory but if you handload certainly that one too.
I've shot the 115's and they group well for my RAP (a bolt Grendel), but one other that you could think about.
Nice thing about the pistol is you can swing it in tight quarters and get off multiple shots at close range. Keep shooting until it stops and falls. If you see him coming then the rifle would be first choice.
Critter defense ammo - A5BLASTER - 02-28-2020
grayfox Wrote:Barnes also has some new 115 Vor-tx factory ammo that's available, for factory and for another all-copper that's a viable one IMO. Don't know if A5's 127's are factory but if you handload certainly that one too.
I've shot the 115's and they group well for my RAP (a bolt Grendel), but one other that you could think about.
Nice thing about the pistol is you can swing it in tight quarters and get off multiple shots at close range. Keep shooting until it stops and falls. If you see him coming then the rifle would be first choice.
Only place to get the 127 LRX as a factory round is from precision firearms.
My thinking on the 127 LRX in this subject is this. If it has to be a ar grendel then best to bring the most mass to the table as possible and still be mag feedable. And being it's a copper round it's going to hold together better and penetrate better then 125 to 130 grain cup and core and soft bonded bullets we would typically use in the grendel.
Critter defense ammo - Constitutionalist - 02-28-2020
grayfox Wrote:Forgot to add........ it also depends on what your AR "likes" -- if its not the sst, then there are other bullets that will work in place of it. An inaccurate rifle is not much more than a loud tomato stick.
If you're killing an animal in "self-defense" with a rifle and its far enough away that you're concerned about precision accuracy- don't be disappointed when the Game Warden gives you a ticket. I don't think I've ever seen a rifle I couldn't hit a target the size of a bear's brain with at 10 or 15 yards. And when he's charging you- you won't likely have much time to use sights except in passing. Bears can outrun horses on level ground.
If you're thinking black bears and smaller critters- I'd recommend an all copper expanding bullet. If you're thinking of grizzlies with a Grendel, I'd be using an FMJ because the only way you're going to stop it is hitting the brain, breaking the spine, or breaking the shoulder (to slow it down so you can hit the brain or break the spine before it mauls you). Penetration will be the key- not expansion. I'd also be using a higher cap magazine so I could keep pumping rounds into it.
I love my Grendels. However, my bear defense guns are a SRH in .480 Ruger and an 1895M in .450 Marlin. Both are loaded with 400gr or heavier cast lead flat nose bullets. If you don't have a heavier rifle than a Grendel- a 12 gauge with slugs would be a good, low cost choice. You want the right tool for this kind of job.
Be safe out there!
John
Critter defense ammo - 65GbySeven - 02-28-2020
Look at Underwood Ammo Xtreme Penetrator for your handguns. I have some for my 45 Colt Ruger Vaquero, it shoots straight and goes through 4x4's then blows up the milk jug behind it.
I agree with A5BLASTER, Copper is the way to go for your Grendel.
Critter defense ammo - 1Shot - 02-28-2020
"So let me phrase the question this way: if you were in the woods with a 65 Grendel AR and a large animal charging after you - what ammo would you want in your gun to give yourself the best chance of survival"
For me it would be my hand loaded 120 gr Speer Gold Dot ammo. I have seen it's performance on deer and my rifles shoot it great. A smile comes on my face when I hear "you need 9mm or 45 ACP pistol as a back up" when you have a MUCH MORE foot pounds of energy delivery system in most any center fire rifle. All I can say that if a critter can survive a magazine full of 6.5 Grendel ammo and comes on to eat me then they will have earned their meal. LOL
Critter defense ammo - montana - 02-29-2020
This topic can get as confrontational as politics lol. For large game you want a bullet that will have deep penetration, "but the flip side is" how fast can you run your rifle or handgun. Just as Constitutionalist stated, self defence will occur at rather close range. Best to have pepper spray and a back up firearm handy if that fails.
Critter defense ammo - grayfox - 02-29-2020
1Shot Wrote:....
A smile comes on my face when I hear "you need 9mm or 45 ACP pistol as a back up" when you have a MUCH MORE foot pounds of energy delivery system in most any center fire rifle. All I can say that if a critter can survive a magazine full of 6.5 Grendel ammo and comes on to eat me then they will have earned their meal. LOL
My backup is in line with "2 is 1. 1 is none." Not that it has to be equivalent, but be sufficient for a good backup.
I may not be the Terminator, but if that critter wants to fight I will not quit until 1 of us is dead.
Critter defense ammo - montana - 02-29-2020
grayfox Wrote:My backup is in line with "2 is 1. 1 is none." Not that it has to be equivalent, but be sufficient for a good backup.
I may not be the Terminator, but if that critter wants to fight I will not quit until 1 of us is dead.
Yup, I always thought, "if a critter can get to me after all the firepower I can throw his way" then he is welcome to me, since he will have earned it
Critter defense ammo - Happy2Shoot - 02-29-2020
I was thinking a FMJ would be good also. I think with a charging bear, depth of penetration is critical. I hear the skull is hard to penetrate.
Critter defense ammo - Happy2Shoot - 02-29-2020
Honestly, the absolutely best bear defense is a dog. Bears can't stand a barking dog. You may lose the dog if it chases after the bear.
Critter defense ammo - A5BLASTER - 02-29-2020
Happy2Shoot Wrote:I was thinking a FMJ would be good also. I think with a charging bear, depth of penetration is critical. I hear the skull is hard to penetrate.
A fmj would likely land you in jail, most states don't allow them for hunting and I'm sure a warden would find some reason too get you for useing it for defense from a attacking bear/bobcat/lion/wolf.
Critter defense ammo - sbowhuntr - 02-29-2020
Agree with A5 on the barnes 127lrx if the grendel is the rifle of choice. My self defense/survival weapon is a good old 12 gauge with slugs, surely can handle all of the critters on your list.
Critter defense ammo - VASCAR2 - 02-29-2020
It would be an interesting test to compare factory FMJ ammo penetration against factory monolithic ammo. In FMJ you have Wolf/Barnual 100 grain, PPU 110 grain and Hornady Frontier 123 grain FMJ. Bullet construction and energy usually determines the better penetrating bullet of the same caliber. In soft tissue a FMJ can yaw and deviate from original point of entry. Monolithic bullets tend to expand and punch straight through.
The Wolf/Barnual 100 grain FMJ ammo has lower velocity/energy as does the PPU 110 grain FMJ. Even if the Frontier 123 grain FMJ was loaded to the same velocity as the American Gunner 123 grain BTHP ammo I dont think youd see significant penetration with a 123 grain FMJ. A bullet designed like the M855A1 at 2500+ FPS might prove to be a superior general purpose FMJ but I think Id rather use a 100 or 115 grain Barnes monolithic bullet.
The 100 grain Wolf/Barnual bimetal FMJ or the PPU 110 grain FMJ generally dont fragment at 6.5 Grendel velocity. I havent examined any Frontier 123 grain FMJ ammo but I suspect it will behave similarly to the PPU 110 grain FMJ. After seeing photographs of hogs and deer shot with Barnes TSX,TTSX ammo Id pick the Barnes bullet over FMJ in the 6.5 Grendel.
I really think a higher energy monolithic bullet will prove superior to cup and core FMJ bullet when striking thick bone. I know this is speculation until someone conduct the test. From my red neck back yard bullet testing its is my opinion your better off with a modern monolithic bullet over a FMJ.
Critter defense ammo - montana - 02-29-2020
Happy2Shoot Wrote:Honestly, the absolutely best bear defense is a dog. Bears can't stand a barking dog. You may lose the dog if it chases after the bear.
Dogs have been known to bring bears back to their owners. A mother grizzly with cubs and a barking dog, "on a narrow hiking trail" is not a good scenario to be in.. A lot depends on the type of dog and mood of the bear. The best defence is paying attention and being able to quickly respond. The survivors response of, "it came out of nowhere and it happened so fast there was no time to respond" is quite common. A dog can help, but is not perfect.