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Weighing the Bullets. - guitarhillbilly - 02-17-2020
One reason most folks reload is for accuracy and it still amazes me how many folks will do all kinds of steps for consistency but never weigh the bullets . I do this no matter what brand of bullet I use because of grain variations in each box.
Example:
If you are taking time to measure the powder charges for safety and accuracy might as well take the time to weigh each bullet out of the Box before using it. I've seen a box of Hornady 6.5 143 grain ELD-X bullets weigh from 142.5 to 143.3 grains .Weigh all 100 in the box and put them into [ .2 grains or less ] sub-groups with each other and this will also improve accuracy. I usually get about 70-80 bullets from the box that will weigh within .2 grains of each other and use them for reloading my batch of ammo.
Weighing the Bullets. - bruceleroy - 02-17-2020
Variations in length matter far greater than weight variations. In fact, most competition shooters dont weigh their bullets. Brian Litz actually stated that it wasnt something that he does because the variance in shot patterns isnt worth chasing. He has tested it extensively in many calibers and brands. 99.99% of the shooters out there wont see any difference in what they are doing. The biggest thing a shooter and reloader can do is chase a more accurate powder charge.
Weighing the Bullets. - guitarhillbilly - 02-17-2020
bruceleroy Wrote:Variations in length matter far greater than weight variations. In fact, most competition shooters dont weigh their bullets. Brian Litz actually stated that it wasnt something that he does because the variance in shot patterns isnt worth chasing. He has tested it extensively in many calibers and brands. 99.99% of the shooters out there wont see any difference in what they are doing. The biggest thing a shooter and reloader can do is chase a more accurate powder charge.
I experienced an improvement in my groups after weighing my bullets. Was already weighing every powder drop and setting OAL with Redding Micrometer Seating Die.
In fact some competition shooters weigh each piece of brass and do a run-out check on each piece of brass / bullet. Just depends how much one is willing to do to gain every bit of consistency possible in each load.
I have a good friend who shoots with a 4 man team that shoots 1000 yards and he tells me all these things mentioned can make a difference between winning and losing a match. Some folks are not willing to go to that extreme.
https://maxaccuracy.com/2015/05/17/dont-think-bullet-runout-makes-a-difference-check-this-out/
Weighing the Bullets. - FLshooter - 02-17-2020
For me a consistent powder charge has given me a vast improvement on my groups.I have a charge master and just by switching from AC to 12v battery power and isolating it from my bench, I have almost eliminated my flyers.
I know guys who weigh their brass/bullets and put everything in groups.I tried that before ,and like I said I think a consistent powder charge is more important.
Weighing the Bullets. - FLshooter - 02-17-2020
For me a consistent powder charge has given me a vast improvement on my groups.I have a charge master and just by switching from AC to 12v battery power and isolating it from my bench, I have almost eliminated my flyers.
I know guys who weigh their brass/bullets and put everything in groups.I tried that before ,and like I said I think a consistent powder charge is more important.
Weighing the Bullets. - bruceleroy - 02-17-2020
What sort of difference are you seeing? And I would agree that run out is a variable often overlooked, but can make a difference.
Good link BTW!
And to be clear, the general, practical if you will, comp shooters is what I was referring to. BR guys are another animal altogether. Every single variable can be noticed when you control to the level of the BR matches. Practical shooting isnt going to show so many flaws because these arent generally guys running the smallest groups possible. For the 99% of shooters out there the benefit of doing all this extra work is lost in their many other inconsistencies of shooting and reloading. To a point, myself included.
I shoot mostly 308...I know, archaic. I have a 1/2" shooter with my setup. I dont weigh brass, but I do use the same brand, I mix primers, I dont weigh bullets or turn necks. I do make sure my powder is as close as possible on a beam scale. I will accept a 0.05 difference. I dont use micrometer seating dies and I dont even know my chamber measurements. I just accept this rifle for what it is and run with it.
At some point most, not all, shooters have to look at what they are doing and be sure that anything new will be of benefit.
Good conversation. I appreciate it gents!
Weighing the Bullets. - kmon - 02-18-2020
I have heard do this / do that over the years for better accuracy. My thought for most shooters woud be b3tter served finding a good load and shooting it more often than to chase the ultimate in accuracy. Most f the time whether we will admit it or not we as the shooter are the part of the puzzle that is the weakest.
Shooting is a system Equipment firearm/scope + consistent ammo + the shooter. The largest variable component of the system is the shooter
That is just my 2 cents.
Weighing the Bullets. - guitarhillbilly - 02-18-2020
bruceleroy Wrote:What sort of difference are you seeing?
My groups tightened up about 10% at 200 yards when I started weighing the bullets. Group avg went from 1.5" to 1.35" at 200 yards. I use a 200 yard zero with my centerfire rifles and practice at 200 and 300 yards. I shoot from a bench rest so I'm willing to do the extra things for consistency.
I want to make it clear that a top level shooter could take my same rifle and loads and probably shoot cloverleafs at 200 yards.
Weighing the Bullets. - guitarhillbilly - 02-18-2020
kmon Wrote:I have heard do this / do that over the years for better accuracy. My thought for most shooters woud be b3tter served finding a good load and shooting it more often than to chase the ultimate in accuracy. Most f the time whether we will admit it or not we as the shooter are the part of the puzzle that is the weakest.
Shooting is a system Equipment firearm/scope + consistent ammo + the shooter. The largest variable component of the system is the shooter
That is just my 2 cents.
There is no doubt that my Savage Bolt Rifles CAN OUT SHOOT me. That is exactly why I need the extra help with my loads.The very things mentioned here help improve consistency. It only takes about 15-20 minutes to weigh a 100 bullets and put them into sub groups. Most of my co workers shoot at 50 or 100 yards on the weekend and don't ever shoot at 300 yards which is not even a long distance. For those folks grab some off the shelf ammo and have some fun.
My postings are suggestions for folks that are willing to go the extra mile and shoot more than a 100 yards.
Weighing the Bullets. - guitarhillbilly - 02-18-2020
FLshooter Wrote:For me a consistent powder charge has given me a vast improvement on my groups.I have a charge master and just by switching from AC to 12v battery power and isolating it from my bench, I have almost eliminated my flyers.
I know guys who weigh their brass/bullets and put everything in groups.I tried that before ,and like I said I think a consistent powder charge is more important.
I weigh EVERY powder charge in my C/F Rifle loads. Weighing each powder charge is the beginning point in the pursuit of quality loads. The very reason consistent powder charges are important are the very same reasons taking the other steps are just as important when attempting to squeeze the most accuracy out of a hand load. These steps eliminate the possibility that the ammo is a problem and narrow the majority of accuracy issues down to the shooter.
Weighing the Bullets. - Mark611 - 02-18-2020
JMO, I think weighing bullets is a waste of time, properly uniforming the OAL length and re tipping the meplat does far more for accuracy then weighing bullets,
Weighing the Bullets. - guitarhillbilly - 02-18-2020
Mark611 Wrote:JMO, I think weighing bullets is a waste of time, properly uniforming the OAL length and re tipping the meplat does far more for accuracy then weighing bullets,
If you think weighing the bullets is a waste of time then it is NOT for YOU. The Hornady bullets that I use are ballistic tip and already have a High B.C. and are not hollow nosed so trimming the meplat is not NECESSARY for me. Having the same OAL with the measurement taken from the Ogive is a given. There are lots of factors that affect the accuracy far more than weighing the bullets but weighing them just eliminates one more variation in the process. The beauty in reloading is that we have all kinds of options available for the assembly of our loads.
The old Yamaha commercial "Different Strokes for Different Folks".
Weighing the Bullets. - grayfox - 02-18-2020
I did a quick back of envelope calc, and the variation of 0.3 grs in bullet weight means 0.0021, or .21% difference of your 143 gr bullet. Whereas a 0.2 gr difference in powder weight means a 0.006, or 0.6%, difference. So weight-wise, in terms of the physics, powder variations should cause more variation than bullet weight delta's... maybe 3X more than bullets'. I might even suggest that the best accuracy comes more from a repeatable, consistent pressure wave generation and propagation (ie, the firing of the powder charge) through the barrel, than a 0.21% delta of accelerated mass. In this propagation, micro-seconds matter.
Plus, perhaps point out that weighing brass is a method of comparative case volumes: since that shooter already uniforms the brand, even production date, and Oal of the brass... so weight is the proxy for uniform volume -- and volume is what will go into the pressure-progression of the powder when it fires.
My IMO from this is that, certainly weighing bullets might help...... but if so, it is one of the last, if not THE last, variable with the smallest ROI, for the shooter. This would be in line with comments that BR shooters are the ones who might want this step in their routine. I shoot mostly from the bench but am not a BR shooter... nor a Jedi master Lol!!).
Weighing the Bullets. - CJW - 02-18-2020
Greyfox....you are always the gentleman and the voice of reason in the Vile Horde.
Chuck
Weighing the Bullets. - rabiddawg - 02-18-2020
10% improvement is just not enough for me to do this.
.1 if it’s a moa shooter. If it’s a 5 moa you got it to 4.5.
The juice ain’t worth the squeeze
Weighing the Bullets. - Mark611 - 02-18-2020
Very true GF, other elements are more important then bullet weighing! sorting brass by volume, weight + internal volume and neck turning, flash hole uniforming, runout ect are all more important then bullet sorting for weigh! and let's not forget accurate powder weights to less the a few hundredth's of a tenth of a grain, and consistent primer seating depths, the list go's on! so I guess It all depends on how and what ur expectation are on accuracy? but the main thing is every bullet u build must be consistent as the next 1 u build! JMO
Weighing the Bullets. - Mark611 - 02-18-2020
And 1 other thing if I'm going to sort bullets? it will be from the base to the ojive, not by weight,
Weighing the Bullets. - bruceleroy - 02-18-2020
One thing will always work. It may not be the same thing for the very next loaded round. Start adding variables together and often you are back where you started. I appreciate that guitarhillbilly gets a 10% decrease in groups size at 200. Hell yeah and rock on! For most thats not a good enough difference to spend the extra time. I can usually keep my groups, again without doing anything extra to case prep or to the bullets, to around an inch at 200. I dont get upset with a 1.5" groups at that distance, but the elk and deer do.
I am in the same thought track as kmon and shoot more to get better with technique and application of marksmanship principles. Unfortunately we tend to shoot the same way and expect different results. Try taking a video of your position from different angels. Also, take a closer look at trigger queeze. These things mattered the most to me.
Weighing the Bullets. - LRRPF52 - 02-18-2020
grayfox Wrote:I did a quick back of envelope calc, and the variation of 0.3 grs in bullet weight means 0.0021, or .21% difference of your 143 gr bullet. Whereas a 0.2 gr difference in powder weight means a 0.006, or 0.6%, difference. So weight-wise, in terms of the physics, powder variations should cause more variation than bullet weight delta's... maybe 3X more than bullets'. I might even suggest that the best accuracy comes more from a repeatable, consistent pressure wave generation and propagation (ie, the firing of the powder charge) through the barrel, than a 0.21% delta of accelerated mass. In this propagation, micro-seconds matter.
Plus, perhaps point out that weighing brass is a method of comparative case volumes: since that shooter already uniforms the brand, even production date, and Oal of the brass... so weight is the proxy for uniform volume -- and volume is what will go into the pressure-progression of the powder when it fires.
My IMO from this is that, certainly weighing bullets might help...... but if so, it is one of the last, if not THE last, variable with the smallest ROI, for the shooter. This would be in line with comments that BR shooters are the ones who might want this step in their routine. I shoot mostly from the bench but am not a BR shooter... nor a Jedi master Lol!!).
You took most of the words out of my thoughts.
If there is one additional step you want to add to increase accuracy on top of the baseline of double-weighed or lab-grade scales for your charges, quality brass, and solid reloading presses/procedures, it is double-seating each projectile with a turn in between each stroke.
The concentricity runout has been proven to be a real thing with real results on-target, so it's the one step that I do when loading precision rifle. I don't uniform primer pockets, ream flash holes, or any of those steps that BR shooters use in tight chambers that don't require re-sizing because I won't see any practical improvements in my hit probability or groups for the kind of shooting I do (steel at distance).
If you are someone who is chasing group sizes on paper with a bag-riding bolt gun in the BR game, then you already know this and aren't constrained or enabled by the capabilities and limitations of the AR15.
Like the OP says, there are different ways to skin a cat.
Weighing the Bullets. - Kswhitetails - 02-19-2020
The experienced loaders and shooters locally say that the arbor press and wilson seating die are the right fix for this, and that after testing the double seating method they say while it does work, it still introduces far too much variation in finished runout. I will say that the 2" groups at 950 are pretty good proof that these seating steps work well. By far the best ROI in getting good results in precision is low SD. And the best ROI in obtaining low SDs IMHO is neck tension. Consistent neck tension is the quickest way to reliable grouping and precision.
If I weigh the first 10 bullets and find less than .2 grain of a swing, I don't weigh any of the batch. I can't shoot good enough to tell the difference at distance anyway. And I stay blissfully happy that way...
