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+--- Thread: issues with accuracy between copper / lead cup & core ? (/showthread.php?tid=20441)
issues with accuracy between copper / lead cup & core ? - Dieselfitter - 01-19-2020
Hi all,
Runnin very good accuracy with cup& core bullets 1/2 - 3/4 moa grps with sierra 100 gr,100 gr eld, and last 85 gr trex makers
Ladder tests with all bullets using both h335 and benchmark to find power weights then OAL test to dial it in a lil more .
Rifle built myself with a proof research carbon wrap bbl as this light weight rifle will be my wifes deer gun , 6.3 lbs with red dot .
Barrel break in was done and there is no function issues passed finding which mags work .
So now to the issue
All cup and core loads are solid performers each time shot .
The makers are very unpredictable, the last grp worked up are 3/4 moa . Was out of bullets so between the time i Ordered more
I shot 120 rounds of the eld loads. Mostly gathering dopes for long range steel shootin.
Now with new bullets here i loaded up 10 to get sd and fps avg for dope and cant get them to grp under 3 moa at 100 yrds
My first thought is lot to lot issues with bullet maker. But im not blaming or bashing the bullet at all.
I have had similar results yrs ago with a 260 rem and barnes bullets which i gave up on.
I recently read a post on a different site that if you run copper bullets you need to dedicate that barrel to them and not switch back and forth between cup and core bullets. These two guys have said cleaning the barrel viciously if changing back and forth
I asked the masses here to anyone that has any experience with using both in same barrel. ?
Copper bullets are more of a demand now as states are requiring them.
I?m 50 yrs old and happy with lead core bullets but these trex offer a light fast fps and longer for better BC for 300 yrd hunting
Which is most of my coyote hunting range.
My wife never hunts past 150 yrds so any bullet will work
Bottom line for me , i?m not sold on copper bullets for accuracy, repeatability.
Thx for your time on any replies
issues with accuracy between copper / lead cup & core ? - 1Shot - 01-19-2020
Usually with any rifle it depends on YOUR rifle. Sounds like your rifle needs to be cleaned really well and then shoot the copper bullet and see what you get. Some barrels I have seen will shoot copper really well for a few rounds then all of a sudden everything goes to the wind. It is due to copper build up in the bore. Clean it well and these rifles usually go back to shooting great for a while again until they need cleaning well again. Other rifles don't shoot well until you get some fouling in the bore. I have a Shilen barrel 25-06 that is a real tack driver. I decided to really clean it once and the result was I could not hit the side of a barn with it until I had fired around 20 rounds through it. It went back to being a bug hole shooter. So now and with most of my rifles I do not clean the bore until accuracy starts to go away. I will clean the chamber but not the bore. Learned this from some bench rest shooters a few years ago. After spending a lot of time in a friends gunsmith shop and from my own working on peoples firearms I can attest that people can do a lot more damage to a firearm by cleaning it too much than not cleaning it at all. Fire arms are kind of like women, as Conway Twitty said in a song, some like a man with a slow hand. Others like there men differently. So try things differently and see what happens. By the way check out DNS from the hunting thread on this site YouTube video. I think it was that bullet if it is the one that is supposed to have petals that break off and make other wounds. He shoots a bunch of hogs and found that this bullet hardly even expanded much less break petals off at Grendel velocity. For your stated needs unless the deer that your wife will be after are huge I would give the Speer 90 gr TNT bullet a try. DNS has shot a BUNCH of hogs with this bullet and it WORKS. I have killed deer with the 120 Speer Gold Dot and Sierra Pro Hunter and both work but if I had to pick just one it would be the Gold Dot hands down. Good luck.
issues with accuracy between copper / lead cup & core ? - Dieselfitter - 01-19-2020
Yes i agree with every barrel has its likes and dislikes .
This barrel hasnt giving me a dirty copper patch yet after break in ,
I use jb compound don it before the last grp test and had poor results again.
I considered the tnt but a varmint bullet scares me on sm to med game.
The trex doesnt exit mostly on another users posts which is great for my coyote hunting
And provide more energy at 300 than my 223 loads
My main idea was trex for me and coyotes and the 123 amax or 120 nosler bt for wife on deer
So using the tnt for coyotes my be my solution.
But any knowledge i can get regarding the use of both lead and copper in same barrel is of value to me
and interesting as the moly debate yrs ago when i shot benchrest .
issues with accuracy between copper / lead cup & core ? - A5BLASTER - 01-19-2020
Dieselfitter Wrote:Hi all,
Runnin very good accuracy with cup& core bullets 1/2 - 3/4 moa grps with sierra 100 gr,100 gr eld, and last 85 gr trex makers
Ladder tests with all bullets using both h335 and benchmark to find power weights then OAL test to dial it in a lil more .
Rifle built myself with a proof research carbon wrap bbl as this light weight rifle will be my wifes deer gun , 6.3 lbs with red dot .
Barrel break in was done and there is no function issues passed finding which mags work .
So now to the issue
All cup and core loads are solid performers each time shot .
The makers are very unpredictable, the last grp worked up are 3/4 moa . Was out of bullets so between the time i Ordered more
I shot 120 rounds of the eld loads. Mostly gathering dopes for long range steel shootin.
Now with new bullets here i loaded up 10 to get sd and fps avg for dope and cant get them to grp under 3 moa at 100 yrds
My first thought is lot to lot issues with bullet maker. But im not blaming or bashing the bullet at all.
I have had similar results yrs ago with a 260 rem and barnes bullets which i gave up on.
I recently read a post on a different site that if you run copper bullets you need to dedicate that barrel to them and not switch back and forth between cup and core bullets. These two guys have said cleaning the barrel viciously if changing back and forth
I asked the masses here to anyone that has any experience with using both in same barrel. ?
Copper bullets are more of a demand now as states are requiring them.
I?m 50 yrs old and happy with lead core bullets but these trex offer a light fast fps and longer for better BC for 300 yrd hunting
Which is most of my coyote hunting range.
My wife never hunts past 150 yrds so any bullet will work
Bottom line for me , i?m not sold on copper bullets for accuracy, repeatability.
Thx for your time on any replies
I use the 85 trex in all my rifles. You have too scrub the barrel if you change from one bullet over too them. Are shoot bout 50 to 100 of them and get a good layer of their copper down the bore.
What powder are you useing with them? I use h335 powder but will be reworking that load with h322 for a more temp stable powder.
issues with accuracy between copper / lead cup & core ? - kmon - 01-19-2020
Have you tried removing all fouling from the barrel before switching bullets from the cup and core to copper bullets?
Barnes recommends cleaning the barrel between copper bullets and cup and core bullets. The reason is accuracy. I do not understand why exactly but I have seen it in a Tikka T3 Hunter 338 Federal. That rifle fully cleaned runs the barnes 180gr bullets under 1/2 MOA when the barrel has been cleaned fully of all fouling then a couple shots of the Barnes bullets shoots that half MOA. Tried it one time and wish I still had pics of the group, 10 shots under a half inch at 100 yards. The other 2 5 shot groups were less than half an inch each. Same loads after shooting 100 rounds of Fusion ammo shot almost 2 MOA.
Like I say I do not understand it but give it a try on the cleaning and that being a good scrubbing beteween types of bullets. For those that do not like cleaning that much a second rifle or upper for Guilding metal bullets and copper bullets might make sense.
Also copper bullets foul the barrel quicker than quilding metal jackets used on cup and core bullets. Mono metal bullets like GMX that are guilding metal do not seem to suffer from this like the all copper bullets from what I have heard from several shooters I trust
issues with accuracy between copper / lead cup & core ? - Dieselfitter - 01-19-2020
kmon Wrote:Have you tried removing all fouling from the barrel before switching bullets from the cup and core to copper bullets?
Barnes recommends cleaning the barrel between copper bullets and cup and core bullets. The reason is accuracy. I do not understand why exactly but I have seen it in a Tikka T3 Hunter 338 Federal. That rifle fully cleaned runs the barnes 180gr bullets under 1/2 MOA when the barrel has been cleaned fully of all fouling then a couple shots of the Barnes bullets shoots that half MOA. Tried it one time and wish I still had pics of the group, 10 shots under a half inch at 100 yards. The other 2 5 shot groups were less than half an inch each. Same loads after shooting 100 rounds of Fusion ammo shot almost 2 MOA.
Like I say I do not understand it but give it a try on the cleaning and that being a good scrubbing beteween types of bullets. For those that do not like cleaning that much a second rifle or upper for Guilding metal bullets and copper bullets might make sense.
Also copper bullets foul the barrel quicker than quilding metal jackets used on cup and core bullets. Mono metal bullets like GMX that are guilding metal do not seem to suffer from this like the all copper bullets from what I have heard from several shooters I trust
I use h335 with the t rex
Ok so more of you have seen the same thing.
With a hand lapped bbl that is so smooth ,this bbl stopped giving me copper at the 5 th break in shot. I did run 10 more just to be sure.
Bbl now has 260 total through it.
Its hard to believe that this bbl has to start super clean then run a bunch of rounds to copper foul it up before it ll shoot good grps
If thats the drill i ll do it . Just seems easier to stay with cup and core til this state of new york gets the idea of copper for hunting also.
Not sure i can justify building another upper for trex. These proof barrels are NoT cheap
I have one in 260 rem also it shoots awsome and same break in , very easy.
The tnt 90 gr had my nod for coyotes til i see it was a flat base
I d rather have the boat tail
issues with accuracy between copper / lead cup & core ? - sbowhuntr - 01-19-2020
The Hornady 95g vmax is boattail, 90g varmaggeddon is another great yote bullet, it is a flat base bullet though. I prefer a flat base for accuracy over a boattail which does nothing until you start talking about long range which to me is past 500+ yards. Tried the trex and barns but not impressed with either.
issues with accuracy between copper / lead cup & core ? - 1Shot - 01-20-2020
For coyotes I don't think I would use the 90 gr Speer TNT if you are saving pelts. From what I have seen where others have used them on hogs I would say they would make nasty exits on coyotes. I would say the Hornady 95 Vmax or the 90 Nos. varmaggeddon would work better as to what I have seen from others usage. They are more fragile and may stay inside. I know that the now discontinued Sierra 85 gr was a super accurate and fragile bullet. The 100 gr Sierra HP varmint bullet is accurate and fragile but with the big almost flat nose HP I had bullets catch on the feed ramp and jam and push the bullet back into the case so I stopped further usage of them in my Grendel. They were wicked on ground hogs out of my 6.5x55. I saw some place where somebody made a 100 gr FMJ, I think it may be Norma, which would be fur friendly.