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BCA vs Group Barrel - My Adventures with 6.5 Grendel - Hollis - 01-08-2020
I wanted to share this info with all of you kind and wise forum dwellers and get some feedback on helping me reach my goals with the 6.5 Grendel.
A quick background: I've really been learning a lot about various guns over the last year and a half and I am thoroughly enjoying the exciting sport of firearms. The 6.5 Grendel got my attention as something I could slap on my AR lower and shoot out to long distances (relative to my 7.62x39 upper that came with my first AR purchase). Being a cheapskate (without much disposable income), I took the gamble to get a Bear Creek Arsenal (BCA) 6.5 Grendel upper (backed up by the 1 MOA guarantee) when it was on sale. After breaking it in and taking all the care I could, it shot about a 12" group at 100 yards (only slightly exaggerating). BCA customer support was great and I ended up with another upper with a nice looking stainless steel barrel. The first time I went out with it, I had some pretty good luck plinking metal targets going out to almost 500 yards. But my excitement for the 6.5 Grendel started to wane. I became frustrated with how difficult it was to get ammo I could afford that the relatively picky 6.5 Grendel barrels "like" and I really wasn't shooting any tighter groups than I could shoot with my 7.62x39 using Tula ammo. I went ahead and broke down and got one of the group barrels recommended here in this forum. As it turned out, I ended up with two BCA uppers so I kept the SS Grendel from BCA on one and put the group barrel on the other. I "accurized" both barrels by lapping and gluing in the barrels to upper. But I still wasn't seeing great results. Having really tight groups at 100 yards is nice, but my goal was to use my Grendel to master the skills involved in long range shooting (well, at least out to 1000 yards). Well I wasn't getting any where near nice groups on paper and around 300 yards I would consistently start missing my 12" metal target on the couple of occasions I was able to shoot it. I'm still not sure all that was going on to cause this, but that is the background.
I recently was able to get a Radical Firearms BCG for 6.5 Grendel. (My 7.62x39 upper and lower are from Radical Firearms and I have been very pleased with this setup.) I also bought a bulk buy of the American Gunner ammo from Hornady on a Black Friday deal and some affordable Nosler ammo. (Got those tips from this forum - Thanks!) I also switched to the same scope and mount that I use for my 7.62x39 (trying to reduce variables, even though this scope is low magnification suited better for close range and the scope rings are of lower quality). I went out to shoot this weekend and I was ecstatic with the results. Here are some pics. (All are 3 shot groups with one really tight group with 2 bullets going through the same hole.)
![[Image: GB100.png]](http://www.martinsen.com/65Grendel/GB100.png)
![[Image: GBSS.png]](http://www.martinsen.com/65Grendel/GBSS.png)
I was only able to get out to 200 yards for the day since I also was shooting 6.5 Creedmoor and 243 (they both shoot great, but will do some work to improve the 6.5 Creedmoor) and gathering data for multiple things. I had the new RF BCG on the BCA SS barrel and the group barrel was using the original BCG from BCA. I got some acceptable sub MOA groups for the group barrel at 100 yards but got some fantastic groups both at 100 and 200 yards for the BCA SS barrel (and I'm sure I can improve on the 200 yds with better scope). I'm no longer feeling like my hopes (and time/money spent!) for 6.5 Grendel were in vain. I know I have a good combination that can shoot consistently - at least to 200 yards.
So, it appears that the BCA barrel, with the right conditions, has the potential to be very accurate (although this is very small sample size). I still have a lot more things to test and swap to get that straight shooting AR semi-auto that can get me out to 1000 yards. I still don't have enough data to come to definite conclusions, but it appears that switching out the BCG helped a lot (although it could have been the scope - don't think so since I am using that scope now on my 6.5 Creedmoor and it shoots great; the mount - a nice Leupold integrated AR mount; a loose screw in the scope mount - although I would regularly check for any scope wiggle; or the ammo I was using - Hornady ELD Match).
My plan is to get both 6.5 Grendel uppers to shoot great and sell one of them and enjoy the heck out of the other to go out to longer distances.
BCA vs Group Barrel - My Adventures with 6.5 Grendel - lazyengineer - 01-08-2020
Thanks for the post. I would say both barrels are apparently sub MOA and shooting very well. I'd be happy with either.
What are the barrel lengths?
BCA vs Group Barrel - My Adventures with 6.5 Grendel - Hollis - 01-08-2020
Here's the specs on the BCA upper: BCA AR-15 Complete Upper Assembly, 20" 4150 Black Nitride Straight Fluted Barrel, 6.5 Grendel, Rifle length gas system, 1:8 Twist w/ 15" M-LOK (later traded out for a non-fluted stainless steel 20" barrel)
The Group Barrel is 20" also.
BCA vs Group Barrel - My Adventures with 6.5 Grendel - Hollis - 01-08-2020
I am very pleased with this. This is what I was hoping for, I just hope that it wasn't a fluke with the stars lined up just right that day and that I can keep consistency and accuracy as I move further out for long distance shooting. Not sure when I'm going to get another chance for a while though.
BCA vs Group Barrel - My Adventures with 6.5 Grendel - Hollis - 01-08-2020
On a side note to lazyengineer - is that an HP41CV in your profile pic? I'm a pretty nerdy engineer myself. Love all the math involved with firearms and shooting! And the HP41CV is the best calculator ever!
BCA vs Group Barrel - My Adventures with 6.5 Grendel - lazyengineer - 01-08-2020
Thanks for the updates. No reason to think the group MOA will fall apart with distance, so long as well above transonic. As far as I can tell, the only material things you changed are the BCG, and the optics; with the optics performing well on the Creedmoor. I wouldn't think a BCG would cause such a notable change. It might be the ammo though? It seems Grendel can be ammo-particular; in my experience at least.
Calculator is an HP28. This thing got my undergraduate degree.
![[Image: 28ccl3q.jpg]](https://www.hpmuseum.org/3qs/28ccl3q.jpg)
![[Image: 28c3q.jpg]](https://www.hpmuseum.org/3qs/28c3q.jpg)
On my phone I now run RealCalc now and set it to RPN.
BCA vs Group Barrel - My Adventures with 6.5 Grendel - Hollis - 01-08-2020
Ahh... the wonderful days of Reverse Polish Notation. But I'll save calculator comments for another thread!
BCA vs Group Barrel - My Adventures with 6.5 Grendel - LRRPF52 - 01-08-2020
Add up how much time it took you, ammo, gas, range fees if applicable, TGTs, and other ancillary costs associated with shooting and see if the BCA was worth it compared even to a higher end barrel.
For me, going cheap has never worked out, so I gave up on that approach long ago.
Only wealthy men can afford cheap things.
BCA vs Group Barrel - My Adventures with 6.5 Grendel - Hollis - 01-08-2020
LRRPF52 Wrote:Add up how much time it took you, ammo, gas, range fees if applicable, TGTs, and other ancillary costs associated with shooting and see if the BCA was worth it compared even to a higher end barrel.
For me, going cheap has never worked out, so I gave up on that approach long ago.
Only wealthy men can afford cheap things.
Trust me, I have done those calculations! And I have come to the same conclusion with some exceptions. At a dollar a pop for ammo to "break-in" the barrel, try to get zero (it's a moving target when your gun ain't shootin straight), missing metal targets at 300 yards and having to figure out needed adjustments to get back on to metal..., it adds up quickly and the extra $100 for a nicer barrel quickly becomes the money saver.
BCA vs Group Barrel - My Adventures with 6.5 Grendel - A5BLASTER - 01-08-2020
Hollis Wrote:Trust me, I have done those calculations! And I have come to the same conclusion with some exceptions. At a dollar a pop for ammo to "break-in" the barrel, try to get zero (it's a moving target when your gun ain't shootin straight), missing metal targets at 300 yards and having to figure out needed adjustments to get back on to metal..., it adds up quickly and the extra $100 for a nicer barrel quickly becomes the money saver.
Why did you pay a dollar a round for ammo? You can find hornady eld-m and hornady American gunner for well under a dollar a round. For like years now.
Ammoseek.com is your freind.
BCA vs Group Barrel - My Adventures with 6.5 Grendel - FLshooter - 01-08-2020
After I put 200 rounds through my 24 inch 6.5 Grendel BCA SS fluted barrel, It was getting decent groups. And I was happy with it for a while.But for me it just wasn’t consistent and although it could do three-quarter inch groups at 100 yards they would open up at longer distances and when the barrel heated up.Frustrating.
Maybe for hunting a BCA barrel would be fine ,but if you’re shooting for accuracy and consistency you may end up getting frustrated like I did. And I am in no way bashing BCA they have their place. And for $200 you get a lot ,you couldn’t even buy an upper receiver and a handrail for that.
I ended up ordering a 24 inch Bartlein heavy barrel and a .936 GB. I used the BCA upper receiver and a hand guard. As far as I can see BCA parts are fine ,it was just the barrel that gave me fits.
BCA vs Group Barrel - My Adventures with 6.5 Grendel - BCHunter - 01-08-2020
My question would be did you use the same lower with both uppers?,....Also what trigger are you using,...the best advice ive ever received is"you don't know how much difference a good trigger makes until you shoot one"
Glad things are settling in for you,...looking forward to more range reports.
BCA vs Group Barrel - My Adventures with 6.5 Grendel - Klem - 01-08-2020
Sounds like everything's normal and you've got what you paid for.
I will add that if you want to shoot a small-calibre AR15 at 1,000yds. You will need the bullets to be supersonic; not transonic and definitely not subsonic. Plus your scope will need decent magnification, clarity and repeatability. You will also get no better results than you do at 100yds.
What is your barrel length?
What scope are you using?
BCA vs Group Barrel - My Adventures with 6.5 Grendel - Hollis - 01-09-2020
A5BLASTER Wrote:Why did you pay a dollar a round for ammo? You can find hornady eld-m and hornady American gunner for well under a dollar a round. For like years now.
Ammoseek.com is your freind.
I'm getting very good deals now but when I first started off (that's when I was going through the issues described above), it was coming close to a buck a shot. I now use the Hornady American Gunner that comes in the "can" of 200 for 75 cents a shot (after tax and s/h). I have some Wolf ammo for shots where I'm not going for precision or long distances which reduces the price per shot also.
You can find a lot of good deals online from Ammoseek but now more sites are charging taxes added on to significant shipping costs making it not such a good deal after all. I find myself waiting for Academy to offer coupons (either $10 or $20 off purchase of $50 or more) and get ammo there cheaper than most places on Ammoseek.
Let me know of any great deals I might be missing. I often check out the Deals thread in this forum (and post there when I find good buys).
BCA vs Group Barrel - My Adventures with 6.5 Grendel - Hollis - 01-09-2020
Klem Wrote:Sounds like everything's normal and you've got what you paid for.
What is your barrel length?
What scope are you using?
20" barrels
Using Nikon P-300 BLK 2-7x scope (discontinued scope with BDC for 300 Blackout that I got at a great price for my 7.62x39)
BCA vs Group Barrel - My Adventures with 6.5 Grendel - Hollis - 01-09-2020
BCHunter Wrote:My question would be did you use the same lower with both uppers?,....Also what trigger are you using,...the best advice ive ever received is"you don't know how much difference a good trigger makes until you shoot one"
Glad things are settling in for you,...looking forward to more range reports.
I was using the same lower for both uppers. (Same lower, same scope, same ammo.) It is a Radical Firearms lower with a nice LaRue trigger.
BCA vs Group Barrel - My Adventures with 6.5 Grendel - Hollis - 01-09-2020
FLshooter Wrote:After I put 200 rounds through my 24 inch 6.5 Grendel BCA SS fluted barrel, It was getting decent groups. And I was happy with it for a while.But for me it just wasn’t consistent and although it could do three-quarter inch groups at 100 yards they would open up at longer distances and when the barrel heated up.Frustrating.
Maybe for hunting a BCA barrel would be fine ,but if you’re shooting for accuracy and consistency you may end up getting frustrated like I did. And I am in no way bashing BCA they have their place. And for $200 you get a lot ,you couldn’t even buy an upper receiver and a handrail for that.
I ended up ordering a 24 inch Bartlein heavy barrel and a .936 GB. I used the BCA upper receiver and a hand guard. As far as I can see BCA parts are fine ,it was just the barrel that gave me fits.
I was experiencing similar results as you state - inconsistencies, unable to hit metal targets after 300 yards (while having no problems doing so with my 7.62x39 Tulammo), etc. I don't think it was a result of heated barrel since the BCA barrel is a heavy barrel and I usually have a minute gap or more between shots. But I can't just blame this on BCA barrel quality. I was shooting worse with the Group Barrel (although I was getting fairly good groups with the GB using Wolf ammo oddly enough). And now I'm getting the best groups of all with the BCA barrel. I'll take a BCA barrel any day if it keeps spitting out 0.3 MOA groups!
This last trip to the range finally gave me very good groups with consistency. Just need to see if this will hold as I go to push this out to further distances.
BCA vs Group Barrel - My Adventures with 6.5 Grendel - Klem - 01-09-2020
Hollis Wrote:20" barrels
Using Nikon P-300 BLK 2-7x scope (discontinued scope with BDC for 300 Blackout that I got at a great price for my 7.62x39)
Hollis,
The 20" barrel will get you to a 1,000 (just) but the bullets will be going slower than a wet week. They will be pushed around by the wind and starting to go wobbly. Your 7X scope will be struggling. I recommend at least 20X and upward. I used a Leupold 20X in F Class for several years and it was OK. My fellow shooters used higher magnifications. 7X might not be good enough to see the spotters on the target. If you are using electronic targets or steel this is less of an issue although even with steel splash you might not see it at 1,000.
AR's are light-weight guns with typically rounded handguards. Neither of which is suited to long range shooting. But, it depends on what you are expecting and whether you are competing with anything or anyone else. Don't let all this put you off though...With a big enough target you will hit it every time and as the old saying goes, 'every shot makes someone happy'.
BCA vs Group Barrel - My Adventures with 6.5 Grendel - pooty - 01-09-2020
Hollis Wrote:I'll take a BCA barrel any day if it keeps spitting out 0.3 MOA groups!
Those guys got busted hiring illegal aliens. XXXX those guys and their company should have been shut down.
No need for profanity here. - LRRP
BCA vs Group Barrel - My Adventures with 6.5 Grendel - Keef - 01-09-2020
LRRPF52 Wrote:Add up how much time it took you, ammo, gas, range fees if applicable, TGTs, and other ancillary costs associated with shooting and see if the BCA was worth it compared even to a higher end barrel.
For me, going cheap has never worked out, so I gave up on that approach long ago.
Only wealthy men can afford cheap things.
Some people are blessed not to have to drive to a range and enjoy shooting. Y'all make it sound like going to work or something. I know "you" can, but I've met very few people who actually shoot moa all day...