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+--- Thread: AR Pistol Build: Help Appreciated (/showthread.php?tid=20161)
AR Pistol Build: Help Appreciated - VictusKeld - 12-12-2019
Hello everyone, I'm currently in the process of buying/building my first firearm. I have an AP M4E1 stripped lower and a LaRue MBT. I plan on getting a SBA4 pistol brace. The rest is really up in the air...
My goal is to have an AR pistol with a barrel roughly 12 inches long, that "maximizes" accuracy and reliability with cheap 100-110 grain steel-cased ammo. Until, I get into reloading--which will likely take at least a year or two--that's what I expect I will primarily be shooting for practice. I also really like the concept of a compact little takedown gun for use as a truck gun or fitting into a bug-out bag. Something like this (SKU: HAVADV556-1). I tried attaching it as a picture, but the file was too large and I was admittedly too lazy to try and figure out how to make the file smaller. I would prefer getting a preassembled upper, but can't imagine that there is something that has everything I'm looking for; I haven't seen one anyway.
With my intentions at least vaguely stated, I have a few questions I would really appreciate your help with.
1. Accuracy with cheap ammo. What are some suggestions for barrel/bolt selection? Chambering (Grendel vs Grendel 2 vs etc)? Twist rates? Preassembled uppers?
2. Takedown. Anyone have any experience with takedown systems like the Havoc QRB or know of any systems or uppers built with that kind of capability?
Thank you very much for any advice or suggestions. I really appreciate it.
AR Pistol Build: Help Appreciated - mdram - 12-12-2019
1. look here
http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?18882-LIMITED-Lilja-10-5-quot-12-5-quot-14-5-quot-16-quot-Barrels-(option-for-complete-upper)
http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?20600-In-Stock-7-5-to-10-5-Inch-Barrel-in-stock-and-on-sale
2. why not just take the upper off?
AR Pistol Build: Help Appreciated - Shooterrex - 12-12-2019
law folder
AR Pistol Build: Help Appreciated - A5BLASTER - 12-12-2019
Best chance for accuracy with wolf ammo is going to be the 11 inch AA barrel.
Get the lapping tool from where ever it's in stock and lapp every upper from here on out.
Can't help with the other question.
Waiting on my 12.5 inch barrel from PF to get here so I can finish my pistol/soon to be sbr grendel.
AR Pistol Build: Help Appreciated - delt475 - 12-13-2019
What is the benefit to the QRB system? AR-15s are designed to be taken apart. Removing the barrel and reinstalling it separately from your optic will 100% change your poi. I know it says 1 moa or under but this seems pretty silly to me. You are saving maybe 5 inches of room by using that?
Type II bolts/barrels are the most common. I would look for one of these.
As for ammo, cheap steal-cased and accurate really dont tend to go together. Wolf ammo has never been known to be accurate. Also, AR?s were not developed to shoot steel-cased ammo. You may find whatever barrel you buy hates it. If you are not going to reload, I would buy a hodgepodge of ammo and see what shoots best in your gun. Planning on buying bulk cheap ammo is a nice plan. What if your gun shoots 4-5 moa with it?
This is your first gun, buy a complete upper
AR Pistol Build: Help Appreciated - LRRPF52 - 12-13-2019
I started out with the MGI QBC system when I was first putting my toes in the water with 6.5 Grendel.
I soon went to a dedicated upper and have never looked back.
One thing I don't like about the LAW folders is the significant weight increase, as well as the width profile, but they do allow shortening the overall package with a quick option for putting it into operation.
AR Pistol Build: Help Appreciated - VictusKeld - 12-13-2019
Thanks for all of the input everyone. I genuinely do appreciate it.
mdram Wrote:1. look here
http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?18882-LIMITED-Lilja-10-5-quot-12-5-quot-14-5-quot-16-quot-Barrels-(option-for-complete-upper)
http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?20600-In-Stock-7-5-to-10-5-Inch-Barrel-in-stock-and-on-sale
2. why not just take the upper off?
Those Lilja barrels seem like a good option. I'll keep following that thread for updates and try to see what prices would look like from rebby. Do you think the Lilja would do well with light steel-cased stuff? Is it overkill in terms of quality? How would that compare to the 11.5" AA barrel?
The main motivation for the takedown feature is a much higher level of possible portability and concealment. I estimate that an upper with a 12" barrel would be a little over 21" long, depending on how the barrel extension overlap plays out in reality, whereas the takedown options shorten that to 14" or so overall length for the longest part. For regular use, that probably doesn't matter very much. But I really like the idea of being able to fit a firearm as capable as a Grendel AR into a tackle box, child's backpack, or perhaps even a large purse.
That's probably just me, and that's ok. I'm not really sold on that aspect of the build yet anyway. I'm mostly curious about matching the "right" barrel and bolt for the ammo. I'm not expecting incredible accuracy or anything, maybe reliably under 3 MOA. Under 2 would be magical dream land expectations.
LRRPF52, was it the inaccuracy of the MGI system that turned you off to those styles of systems? I was hoping that being able to pick my own barrel would alleviate a good chunk of that. Also, the Havoc appears to have a sturdier lockup than the Hydra did. LaRue's PredatOBR seems to do pretty well with a takedown system. Maybe, I'm just fooling myself though. Also, it's easy to say now but, the weight increase isn't a big deal to me.
AR Pistol Build: Help Appreciated - mdram - 12-13-2019
VictusKeld Wrote:Do you think the Lilja would do well with light steel-cased stuff? Is it overkill in terms of quality?
no clue, the wolf can be unpredictable
and there is no such thing as overkill on quality, if it fits in your budget
AR Pistol Build: Help Appreciated - VictusKeld - 12-13-2019
Yeah, I guess I never included budget. I would be looking at around $1,000 for the completed pistol, not including the cost of any of those adapters I may or may not end up with. $1,500 would be my absolute maximum.
AR Pistol Build: Help Appreciated - mdram - 12-13-2019
spreadsheet time
i think the majority of the budget should go
barrel, glass, trigger, everything else
AR Pistol Build: Help Appreciated - Shooterrex - 12-14-2019
I have a 12 in PSA barrel that shoots the wolf right at 1.5 moa
AR Pistol Build: Help Appreciated - Rangerofthenorth - 12-14-2019
A5BLASTER Wrote:Best chance for accuracy with wolf ammo is going to be the 11 inch AA barrel.
Get the lapping tool from where ever it's in stock and lapp every upper from here on out.
Can't help with the other question.
Waiting on my 12.5 inch barrel from PF to get here so I can finish my pistol/soon to be sbr grendel.
+1 on the AA barrel, mine loves Wolf and also really loves Hornady Black
AR Pistol Build: Help Appreciated - VictusKeld - 12-14-2019
Shooterrex, that's kind of what I was wondering. Maybe the less expensive barrels fire the less expensive ammo better.
Rangerofthenorth, what's a rough accuracy estimate on both?
AR Pistol Build: Help Appreciated - kpswihart - 12-15-2019
But I really like the idea of being able to fit a firearm as capable as a Grendel AR into a tackle box, child's backpack, or perhaps even a large purse.
After 20+ years as an leo, sometimes actions or statements draw my attention. This wording did just that. I'm all about our individual rights and have spent my entire adult life doing what I can to protect them. My personal opinion is that we, who enjoy our rights, should do all that we can to maintain them. I'm not here to throw rocks at anyone, but a member with four posts making a statement like this raises some red flags for me.
If this is a legitimate thread, it would probably have been better to use a different example of concealing an AR than a child's backpack, so as not to give anything to those who wish to take our rights from us. If this is not a legitimate post, we as members should be more cognizant of how we give advice and to who.
Again, I'm not trying to discourage anyone from learning or from giving advice, and I'm not trying to call anyone out. I really appreciate the members here and have learned a ton of information and continue to learn everyday. IMHO it is beneficial for folks to pay attention to how they are asking questions and how they answer questions.
AR Pistol Build: Help Appreciated - kpswihart - 12-15-2019
VictusKeld Wrote:But I really like the idea of being able to fit a firearm as capable as a Grendel AR into a tackle box, child's backpack, or perhaps even a large purse.
After 20+ years as an leo, sometimes actions or statements draw my attention. This wording did just that. I'm all about our individual rights and have spent my entire adult life doing what I can to protect them. My personal opinion is that we, who enjoy our rights, should do all that we can to maintain them. I'm not here to throw rocks at anyone, but a member with four posts making a statement like this raises some red flags for me.
If this is a legitimate thread, it would probably have been better to use a different example of concealing an AR than using a child's backpack, so as not to give anything to those who wish to take our rights from us. If this is not a legitimate post, we as members should be more cognizant of how we give advice and to who.
Again, I'm not trying to discourage anyone from learning or from giving advice, and I'm not trying to call anyone out, this phrase just jumped out at me. I really appreciate the members here and have learned a ton of information and continue to learn everyday. IMHO it is beneficial for folks to pay attention to how they are asking questions and how questions are answered.
AR Pistol Build: Help Appreciated - VictusKeld - 12-17-2019
kpswihart Wrote:After 20+ years as an leo, sometimes actions or statements draw my attention. This wording did just that.
My apologies if I said something inappropriate. Was the issue only with the backpack example or all three? In retrospect, I suppose I should have said small or compact instead, or perhaps changed the example entirely to laptop case or something similar. I just thought about random items in my household that it could fit in. Cry Havoc, a company that has contracts selling the adapters to the Air Force, has a video on YT that show one in a soft-case Batman/Superman lunchbox, talk about a red flag!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkrfbKCjzJw
Takedown firearms have always seemed "cool" to me; maybe it's my inner operator wannabe coming out. From current firearm offerings, and even from the old ads for toys like Secret Sam back in the mid 60s, I'm not alone. I am genuinely sorry if what I said was inappropriate though.
Edited: to remove grammatical errors.
AR Pistol Build: Help Appreciated - LRRPF52 - 12-17-2019
VictusKeld Wrote:Thanks for all of the input everyone. I genuinely do appreciate it.
Those Lilja barrels seem like a good option. I'll keep following that thread for updates and try to see what prices would look like from rebby. Do you think the Lilja would do well with light steel-cased stuff? Is it overkill in terms of quality? How would that compare to the 11.5" AA barrel?
The main motivation for the takedown feature is a much higher level of possible portability and concealment. I estimate that an upper with a 12" barrel would be a little over 21" long, depending on how the barrel extension overlap plays out in reality, whereas the takedown options shorten that to 14" or so overall length for the longest part. For regular use, that probably doesn't matter very much. But I really like the idea of being able to fit a firearm as capable as a Grendel AR into a tackle box, child's backpack, or perhaps even a large purse.
That's probably just me, and that's ok. I'm not really sold on that aspect of the build yet anyway. I'm mostly curious about matching the "right" barrel and bolt for the ammo. I'm not expecting incredible accuracy or anything, maybe reliably under 3 MOA. Under 2 would be magical dream land expectations.
LRRPF52, was it the inaccuracy of the MGI system that turned you off to those styles of systems? I was hoping that being able to pick my own barrel would alleviate a good chunk of that. Also, the Havoc appears to have a sturdier lockup than the Hydra did. LaRue's PredatOBR seems to do pretty well with a takedown system. Maybe, I'm just fooling myself though. Also, it's easy to say now but, the weight increase isn't a big deal to me.
I started out just seeing what it would do with initial load development for velocity, as I was more focused on velocity at that time. I think it was still in that configuration when I let some of my nephews shoot it with AA 90gr TNT loads at 300yds on some 12" steel poppers, which it flattened with ease 1st-round hits for them.
I was mainly shooting .260 Rem out of a large frame at the time for all my LR work, while Grendel was just a side interest I was playing with in hopes to have a lighter rifle for military Sniper team competitions conducted in field settings, no KD ranges. Once I started to see how easy it was for a new shooter to get on the rifle and make 1st round hits, I decided to put it in a dedicated upper and not mess with the Quick Barrel Change system anymore.
AR Pistol Build: Help Appreciated - wideglidejoe - 12-18-2019
You are correct on your assumption of an upper w/12.5" bbl being just a hair over 21" when removed from a lower. If you have a LAW folder on that same lower, the overall length is now 23"; is it worth separating the upper & lower for 2"? Granted, if you go with a takedown system, you might get to that 14" you mentioned, or get close. And, as LRRPF52 has already mentioned, the LAW adds some weight, and when folded it is "thick", approx. 4.5".
I have a Ballistic Advantage 12.5" bbl pistol with the Gamma V6 ( I think that's what it's called?) and my upper is a hair over 21". I have a LAW folder on it, and a Tailhook brace behind that. I carry it in my truck in a Wilson tennis racket bag. I just don't want anyone looking in my truck window in a parking lot and see a case that screams "gun!" Even tho' it's in a tennis racket bag, I still try to keep it out of sight. Sometimes I think about taking the LAW off and just having the Tailhook on the pistol tube.