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+--- Thread: Barrel break in and copper fouling (/showthread.php?tid=19813)
Barrel break in and copper fouling - gofastman - 10-25-2019
What exactly is the role of copper fouling on a new barrel?
I've heard some say a little copper it's beneficial for accuracy, other places say to remove the copper during break in.
I was planning to pull a boresnake through it every 5 shots for the first 75 rounds. Would it be helpful or detrimental to use a dedicated copper remover during this time?
Barrel break in and copper fouling - mdram - 10-25-2019
use a patch and rod, you can see the copper that way
check the manufacturer website for the barrel, or any high end manufacture and see what they recommend
note: everyplace you look will be slightly different
Barrel break in and copper fouling - A5BLASTER - 10-25-2019
gofastman Wrote:What exactly is the role of copper fouling on a new barrel?
I've heard some say a little copper it's beneficial for accuracy, other places say to remove the copper during break in.
I was planning to pull a boresnake through it every 5 shots for the first 75 rounds. Would it be helpful or detrimental to use a dedicated copper remover during this time?
I use a boresnake of sorts. I use the Otis snake with screw on attachments for cleaning.
But here is where I'm at with barrel break in. I use to go through the whole routine of shooting and cleaning x number of shots for y number of steps.
Then one day I decided to test it and see if it made a diffrence.
I bought my first of many of the 16 inch AA barrels I have. Didn't do any break in at all. What I did was keep my rate of fire low enough that I could never feel with my hand hardly any warmth in the barrel. Did that for the first 100 rounds.
Then I stripped the barrel clean got everything out, carbon, lead, copper everything. Went to the range and resighted and that barrel will shot everything good to very good and shoots factory fusion into stupid small groups.
So I took a second matching barrel and built in to a matching upper, did the whole shoot and clean routine and even went beyond that and didn't let my barrel get even slightly warm when it reached 100 rounds I stripped cleaned it.
And guess what both barrels shoot just as tight with the same ammo.
What I have noticed is if you buy a top end barrel that has been hand lapped. There is even less of a reason to do the break in thing.
To me break in is a waist of cleaning supplys and range time.
Now this is for me, I'm not going to tell someone they shouldn't do break in. I'm just saying from what I have seen with my own barrels it's not worth the effort.
But I also don't buy dirt cheap barrels. That maybe the biggest factor in all this.
Barrel break in and copper fouling - CJW - 10-25-2019
A5Blaster is dead on.
I have a 16 and 18 inch Oden barrels, they are not copper mines at all.
Barrel break in and copper fouling - Lemonaid - 10-25-2019
gofastman Wrote:What exactly is the role of copper fouling on a new barrel?
I've heard some say a little copper it's beneficial for accuracy, other places say to remove the copper during break in.
I was planning to pull a boresnake through it every 5 shots for the first 75 rounds. Would it be helpful or detrimental to use a dedicated copper remover during this time?
The Krieger link explains why and how quite well.
https://www.kriegerbarrels.com/faq#breakin
Barrel break in and copper fouling - rabiddawg - 10-25-2019
I read somewhere that Dan Lilja said barrels sales went up 10% when he posted a break in procedure.
My thoughts, hand lapped barrels don’t need a break in. Tomato sticks do.
Barrel break in and copper fouling - Klem - 10-25-2019
I don't break-in barrels anymore. The most tedious waste of time, effort and money I think ever perpetrated on the shooting community.
I buy decent barrels and shoot them. I expect the first few shots of a new barrel will lap the barrel with copper, getting into all the macrosopic pores and imperfections, and that's fine with me. If I chemically remove that copper then I will need to re-foul the barrel again next time which is another way of saying how long it takes for the MPI to settle. I don't even clean the barrel every time I shoot now, and as long as I am mindful of corrosion in storage then not cleaning makes no noticeable difference to group sizes. I find that a fouled barrel takes no time to settle and the first cold bore shot is closer to the average MPI.
My two large containers of BoreTek copper solvent have long since been thrown out. I clean carbon out of the barrel occasionally, the working parts get cleaned every time (especially if using a suppressor), but copper is not a concern.
Up to you whether you believe in 'breaking in' is worth it.
Barrel break in and copper fouling - Gusmeister - 10-26-2019
I do not know if the break in process actually makes a barrel more accurate. But I have observed my broken in barrels tend to pick up less copper from the bullets than untouched barrels. My target shooting friends say a broken in barrel picks up copper (actually guilding metal for most bullets) more slowly and allows for longer intervals between cleanings. Mind you.... there are 100 recommended ways to break in a barrel. I imagine the benefit of a break in depends on the individual barrel just as the interval between cleanings depends on the barrel.
I too recommend a rod with white cotton patches. The patches will tell you what is going on with the fouling.
Soooo... it does not cost much, you'll probably learn a few things and it will be a labor of love. If you don't do it you may long wonder if you should have (unless it's a tack driver out of the box).
Barrel break in and copper fouling - FLshooter - 10-26-2019
I finally realized that in the long run,it pays off to buy a quality barrel.So,my break ins are my 4-5 shot sight in.So,no real break in necessary.I do run a nylon brush through my barrel 10 times after every shooting session.And I run patches through my barrel with a bore guide and Tipton 1 pc rod.I run them till they come out clean.Sometimes I use Hoppes bore cleaner.And on my last few patches I run a little Lucas gun oil. Because you never can be too safe in Florida ,everything rusts here.
I never liked bore snakes. Seems ridiculous to run the same dirt in and out every time.But I have a lot of friends that use bore snakes. I like the ritual of taking my gun apart when I get home and cleaning the barrel. What I do, some would consider overkill.
Barrel break in and copper fouling - Klem - 10-27-2019
[quote=Gusmeister]
Soooo... it does not cost much (Well, to be fair it is range time, ammunition and barrel life), you'll probably learn a few things (Really?) and it will be a labor of love (LOL, like singing while mopping the floor). If you don't do it you may long wonder if you should have (maybe, but that's symptomatic of indoctrination) (unless it's a tack driver out of the box [how will you know this if your first 50 rounds are a cleaning regime?]).[/QUOTE]
Barrel break in and copper fouling - Gusmeister - 10-27-2019
Klem Wrote:[quote=Gusmeister]
Soooo... it does not cost much (Well, to be fair it is range time, ammunition and barrel life), you'll probably learn a few things (Really?) and it will be a labor of love (LOL, like singing while mopping the floor). If you don't do it you may long wonder if you should have (maybe, but that's symptomatic of indoctrination) (unless it's a tack driver out of the box [how will you know this if your first 50 rounds are a cleaning regime?]).[/QUOTE]
Mr Klem,
You sure got up on the grouchy side of the bed this morning. It is fine if you don't agree with me but you don't need to get your panties in a twist over it. Chill. It's all fine.
Barrel break in and copper fouling - Klem - 10-27-2019
Gusmeister Wrote:[quote=Klem]
Mr Klem,
You sure got up on the grouchy side of the bed this morning. It is fine if you don't agree with me but you don't need to get your panties in a twist over it. Chill. It's all fine.
Are you capable of concentrating on the merits of the argument? Save the ad hom for kids and politicians.
Barrel break in and copper fouling - pinetreebbs - 10-27-2019
Klem Wrote:I don't break-in barrels anymore. The most tedious waste of time, effort and money I think ever perpetrated on the shooting community.
I buy decent barrels and shoot them. I expect the first few shots of a new barrel will lap the barrel with copper, getting into all the macrosopic pores and imperfections, and that's fine with me. If I chemically remove that copper then I will need to re-foul the barrel again next time which is another way of saying how long it takes for the MPI to settle. I don't even clean the barrel every time I shoot now, and as long as I am mindful of corrosion in storage then not cleaning makes no noticeable difference to group sizes. I find that a fouled barrel takes no time to settle and the first cold bore shot is closer to the average MPI.
My two large containers of BoreTek copper solvent have long since been thrown out. I clean carbon out of the barrel occasionally, the working parts get cleaned every time (especially if using a suppressor), but copper is not a concern.
Up to you whether you believe in 'breaking in' is worth it.
I to think break in is more OCD ritual and tradition than a scientifically proved improvement in accuracy and barrel life. I do not recall the barrel maker that also said break-in was nonsense. Wrly he wasn't completely against it however, since all that cleaning destroyed accuracy sooner and sold more barrels.
Barrel break in and copper fouling - 204 AR - 10-27-2019
I gave up on break in also. If you have a Grendel that copper fouls any appreciable amount, that sucker is too rough for break in to help IMO.
The best thing I ever bought for bore cleaning, is the Lyman bore cam. For $200, I no longer guess how my cleaning is working. And I've changed quite a few things from what I used to think was working. Carbon is a much bigger problem than copper in Grendel sized, low speed rounds. Especially with suppressed ar's, and certain powders like 8208. I got some tips from another shooter on another forum, and I no longer screw around with soaking, brushing, soaking, patching, on and on and on. I run 3 soaked patches with Boretech carbon remover, brush the loose stuff, patch it dry and inspect with the bore cam. If hard carbon exists in the throat, and or first few inches of barrel, I go to a brush covered in JB Bore Bright (the red stuff). I don't count strokes, but in a couple minutes you're done. Patch it out and inspect. Coat with oil if you're storing it for a while.
Another thing for those barrels with truly rough barrels. I got an R-15, 30 RAR, and that bore was definitely the ugliest bore I've ever scoped. It shot ok, but fouled pretty badly. I somewhat reluctantly tried the Tubb fire-lap system, used all 50 bullets exactly like the instructions said, and it made a HUGE difference in that barrel. It no longer fouls, looks a lot better, and shoots very well. I really really like that round, I wish they would have supported it and came out with a family of rounds based off of it.
Barrel break in and copper fouling - NugginFutz - 10-27-2019
204 AR Wrote:I gave up on break in also. If you have a Grendel that copper fouls any appreciable amount, that sucker is too rough for break in to help IMO....My latest Grendel (A Larue Tactical) went to the range w/o a break-in regiment. Shoots very well, & doesn't copper foul (I use Sweet's bore cleaner exclusively). Makes me think back to all the ammo I used for break-in... I could have spent that $$ on better components.
204 AR Wrote:...The best thing I ever bought for bore cleaning, is the Lyman bore cam. For $200, I no longer guess how my cleaning is working...Unless you have ready access to a friends' scope.
204 AR Wrote:Another thing for those barrels with truly rough barrels. I got an R-15, 30 RAR, and that bore was definitely the ugliest bore I've ever scoped. It shot ok, but fouled pretty badly. I somewhat reluctantly tried the Tubb fire-lap system, used all 50 bullets exactly like the instructions said, and it made a HUGE difference in that barrel. It no longer fouls, looks a lot better, and shoots very well...
I, too, once used David Tubb's FLS. Beforehand, the rifle shot fairly well, but fouled like a 2-stroke on pre-mix. I'd previously used Tetra Copper Cleaner to remove the fouling, with the first patches coming out royal blue and, after 3 consecutive treatments, still coming out with a slight blue tinge. Subsequent trips to the range just resulted in a fresh copper harvest, so I decided to give the Tubb's system a go.
Unfortunately for me, I didn't have access to a bore scope at the time and so, like you, I used all the bullets IAW the directions.
The plus side was that it greatly reduced the copper fouling. On the downside, I discovered that the process significantly eroded the throat of that rifle, leaving me with very limited ability to "chase the lands" as the rifle's throat continues to naturally erode from range time.
The takeaway is that my experience would seem to support Krieger's hypothesis that the majority of copper fouling in a properly lapped barrel originates in the throat. In my case, removing such a significant portion from the throat of this rifle is what may be responsible for the reduction in copper fouling.
Unfortunately, I cannot locate the notebook is used to record the experience, so I am unable to quote exactly how many thousandth's I lost. IIRC, loss due to the FLS treatment was in the vicinity of .030".
Ultimately, having a borescope at the range may have allowed me to confirm said hypothesis. Moving forward, I am more likely to polish the throats of as the initial treatment of any future "copper mines".
Barrel break in and copper fouling - Growler - 11-01-2019
OP Lights fuse..rolls smoke grenade into crowded bar..runs...
This is one of those bench-clearing brawl topics.
Shoot bullets with copper on the outside, you get copper fouling. While it accumulates, things like MV change. Eventually it reaches equilibrium, and things change a lot slower. Unless you remove the copper, then things start changing fast again (w/r to round count) until equilibrium is restored. In this case, you don?t want change.
In general, there would have to be a good reason to do all that work and upset the copper equilibrium you fired all those rounds to achieve. Cleaning carbon fowling (powder solvent) won?t remove much copper, but using copper solvent to remove copper is something you really want to understand before you do it.
If you have reamer marks in the throat of a new barrel that you are eager to wear and lap smooth, the initial coating of copper fouling could drag that process out over more rounds. The theory is that you clean initial copper fouling to remove it so that throat break-in happens faster and more completely. How much that translates into actual benefit is debatable (see upthread). At some point you decide it?s good enough, then you stop cleaning copper and allow it to accumulate to reach equilibrium. You know that?s happened when your chrono shows MV change with round count has settled down.
If the type of shooting you do requires you to carefully track MV variation then a short break in regimen *might* get you there in fewer rounds. The right way is what makes you happy; everyone else is obviously crazy.
Barrel break in and copper fouling - gofastman - 11-01-2019
Growler Wrote:OP Lights fuse..rolls smoke grenade into crowded bar..runs...
This is one of those bench-clearing brawl topics.
Shoot bullets with copper on the outside, you get copper fouling. While it accumulates, things like MV change. Eventually it reaches equilibrium, and things change a lot slower. Unless you remove the copper, then things start changing fast again (w/r to round count) until equilibrium is restored. In this case, you don?t want change.
In general, there would have to be a good reason to do all that work and upset the copper equilibrium you fired all those rounds to achieve. Cleaning carbon fowling (powder solvent) won?t remove much copper, but using copper solvent to remove copper is something you really want to understand before you do it.
If you have reamer marks in the throat of a new barrel that you are eager to wear and lap smooth, the initial coating of copper fouling could drag that process out over more rounds. The theory is that you clean initial copper fouling to remove it so that throat break-in happens faster and more completely. How much that translates into actual benefit is debatable (see upthread). At some point you decide it?s good enough, then you stop cleaning copper and allow it to accumulate to reach equilibrium. You know that?s happened when your chrono shows MV change with round count has settled down.
If the type of shooting you do requires you to carefully track MV variation then a short break in regimen *might* get you there in fewer rounds. The right way is what makes you happy; everyone else is obviously crazy.
This is what I was looking for! Thanks!
And yes, the first paragraph is accurate, lol