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A4 --> A5 Buffer Tube conversion - SKelt - 08-19-2019
I have a 12" Grendel pistol I built using an SBA3 brace. If I convert it to a longer LOP using an A5 buffer tube will I need a different buffer weight and spring? If so, what should I look for in the replacement items?
A4 --> A5 Buffer Tube conversion - A5BLASTER - 08-19-2019
If you convert it, that is modifying it and in the eyes of the Fed's it's against the law.
A4 --> A5 Buffer Tube conversion - Kswhitetails - 08-20-2019
A5BLASTER Wrote:If you convert it, that is modifying it and in the eyes of the Fed's it's against the law.
NAILS IT.
Again.
Listen, and abandon your plan, unless you also plan to file a form 1 and wait for approval. I wouldn't take this chance, given the current way of things. Beware the fudds.
A4 --> A5 Buffer Tube conversion - SKelt - 08-20-2019
Damn, didn't realize that the buffer tube was included within the brace modification limits. Would it still violate the law if I put a Law Tactical folder on the gun?
Appreciate the advice on this.
A4 --> A5 Buffer Tube conversion - A5BLASTER - 08-20-2019
SKelt Wrote:Damn, didn't realize that the buffer tube was included within the brace modification limits. Would it still violate the law if I put a Law Tactical folder on the gun?
Appreciate the advice on this.
Not sure on the rules when adding the folder thingy. I know I seen a discussion about it on barfcom before but can't remember how long ago that was.
For what it's worth I started with the sba3 when I built my pistol grendel. Now I'm waiting on forums to clear. Screw a pistol brace, give me a real stock. I'm ok with paying a lil extra and asking please, that way I can have a more comfortable and contolable weapon.
Plus braces just look like crap.
A4 --> A5 Buffer Tube conversion - SKelt - 08-20-2019
Completely agree, if it wasn't for the travel notification required with an SBR I would sell all my SBA3 braces and just put the B5 stocks I love in their places.
A4 --> A5 Buffer Tube conversion - Lastrites - 08-21-2019
SKelt Wrote:Damn, didn't realize that the buffer tube was included within the brace modification limits. Would it still violate the law if I put a Law Tactical folder on the gun?
Appreciate the advice on this.
The issue at hand with the LT folder is the added length it adds to the LOP, it will put you over 13.5" LOP limit the atf deemed to be the limit as acceptable for braces. They will also measure the OAL with it folded which prevents the use of a vfg in most cases. As for the use of an A5 reciever extension, it's been done before and really isn't a modification to the brace itself but if this set-up gets you over the 13.5" LOP it would be no bueno. I recall seeing Vltor posting a picture of a SB3 on their website and it appeared to be just short of the LOP issue.
And damn it would be nice if the reduction of "Gray" areas would be clarified and not just changed on the whim of a field agent to benefit his/her own case.
A4 --> A5 Buffer Tube conversion - HickLife - 08-21-2019
Lastrites Wrote:They will also measure the OAL with it folded which prevents the use of a vfg in most cases.
Not according to their most recent letter they put out, seriously people need to stop asking them if it is ok to do something and just do it. The police officer you run into might not even know there is a such thing as an ar pistol to even begin with and try to charge you with an unregistered sbr (do a quick search of an idiot open carrying an ar in a park and it'll show you, not saying cops are dumb, just maybe not as informed as they should be sometimes). The atf changes their mind like I go through toilet paper after chilifest. They measure from the end of the buffer tube (even with a folder) to the end of the barrel, or muzzle device if it is permanently fixed. Here is an article as of July 5th. VVV
https://www.recoilweb.com/measuring-the-overall-length-of-a-pistol-atf-has-altered-the-deal-151346.html
Also SB tactical makes a LOP limiter if you are that concerned about it- https://www.sb-tactical.com/product/lopl-length-of-pull-limiter/
I say do what you want, they're gonna change their mind anyways. Latest word says the atf might even do away with braces soon and you will have to register or change the barrel anyways. Isn't it great when non elected officials can arbitrarily change their minds on something that will make you a felon?
A4 --> A5 Buffer Tube conversion - LRRPF52 - 08-21-2019
A5BLASTER Wrote:If you convert it, that is modifying it and in the eyes of the Fed's it's against the law.
If you modify the brace into a stock, or a device with a plug in the space where your arm goes, then they can and have prosecuted this (domestic violence call, threw in firearms charge and lost that case).
Using a different RET does not modify the brace, and increasing the LOP certainly doesn't violate any laws.
OP: If you use an A5 RET, you will need the corresponding A5 buffer, which is longer than a carbine, but shorter than a rifle buffer.
Also, if you install a Law folding adaptor, the overall measurement of the length of the pistol will be considered in the folded position.
A4 --> A5 Buffer Tube conversion - FRB6.5 - 08-22-2019
A5 on its own with SBA3 or 4 keeps the LOP under 13 1/2. If you are using a Law folding adapter with either RE you need to use the limiters linked above or fill in a hole with epoxy etc.
Also A5 requires a rifle length spring such as a Sprinco Green as well as the longer A5 buffer.
A4 --> A5 Buffer Tube conversion - Lastrites - 08-22-2019
I'll leave this here as it is a good read
https://blog.princelaw.com/2019/07/05/atf-rescinds-prior-methods-to-measure-a-firearms-overall-length-when-equipped-with-a-stabilizing-brace/
Didn't want to click
Measure to end of buffer tube or if it folds, measure in folded position and the 13.5"lop is a thing.
A4 --> A5 Buffer Tube conversion - A5BLASTER - 08-22-2019
LRRPF52 Wrote:If you modify the brace into a stock, or a device with a plug in the space where your arm goes, then they can and have prosecuted this (domestic violence call, threw in firearms charge and lost that case).
Using a different RET does not modify the brace, and increasing the LOP certainly doesn't violate any laws.
OP: If you use an A5 RET, you will need the corresponding A5 buffer, which is longer than a carbine, but shorter than a rifle buffer.
Also, if you install a Law folding adaptor, the overall measurement of the length of the pistol will be considered in the folded position.
What I was told by law enforcement here in my state is this.
If the brace is described to fit on a carbine buffer tube it must remain on a carbine buffer tube. Changing out the tube is considered a modification and illegal.
That's what local, sherriff, state trooper and ldwf game wardens have to say on the issue.
That's who I'm going with on the subject.
A4 --> A5 Buffer Tube conversion - Lastrites - 08-22-2019
The attachement I had added addresses buffer tubes to a point, atf points out that it only standard buffer tubes will be considered in OAL measurement and not a tube like the KAK supertube that has about an inch of superfluous material or so of solid space added to the end which does nothing but add length to extension. An A-5 or AR-10 tube which is longer than an AR15 tube but are fully functional may end up being another "gray" area which those are standard receiver extensions just not necessarily for an AR15. In the end any LEO can crack your nuts until they get themselves sorted out so you may beat the charge but you might take a ride.
A4 --> A5 Buffer Tube conversion - FRB6.5 - 08-22-2019
A5BLASTER Wrote:What I was told by law enforcement here in my state is this.
If the brace is described to fit on a carbine buffer tube it must remain on a carbine buffer tube. Changing out the tube is considered a modification and illegal.
That's what local, sherriff, state trooper and ldwf game wardens have to say on the issue.
That's who I'm going with on the subject.
Given you can buy the SBA3 brace without the RE then what? https://www.newfrontierarmory.com/shop/sb-tactical-sba3-pistol-stabilizing-brace/
The April 2017 Open Letter was pretty clear:
If, however, the shooter/possessor takes affirmative steps to configure the device for use as a shoulder-stock — for example, configuring the brace so as to permanently affix it to the end of a buffer tube…removing the arm-strap, or otherwise undermining its ability to be used as a brace — and then in fact shoots the firearm from the shoulder…that person has…”redesigned” the firearm for purposes of the NFA. – BATFE
IANAL and I agree that the regulations and back and forth changes are a silly game of "simon says". But my take away from the prince law link above, the freedom shop incident and now the Black Aces change has been more to steer people away from accidental or intentional AOW/SBS/SBR from the overly vague "Firearm" classification. The all seem to make it more clear that there is a definition of a modern "pistol". Due to ADA in my opinion braces won't be going anywhere and the recent actions seem to be protecting them in a way.
A4 --> A5 Buffer Tube conversion - SKelt - 08-22-2019
I've bought three different SBA3s, one from a PSA kit, one from Brownells, and one from Primary Arms that was brace only. This is one hell of a gray area.
A4 --> A5 Buffer Tube conversion - A5BLASTER - 08-22-2019
FRB6.5 Wrote:Given you can buy the SBA3 brace without the RE then what? https://www.newfrontierarmory.com/shop/sb-tactical-sba3-pistol-stabilizing-brace/
The April 2017 Open Letter was pretty clear:
If, however, the shooter/possessor takes affirmative steps to configure the device for use as a shoulder-stock — for example, configuring the brace so as to permanently affix it to the end of a buffer tube…removing the arm-strap, or otherwise undermining its ability to be used as a brace — and then in fact shoots the firearm from the shoulder…that person has…”redesigned” the firearm for purposes of the NFA. – BATFE
IANAL and I agree that the regulations and back and forth changes are a silly game of "simon says". But my take away from the prince law link above, the freedom shop incident and now the Black Aces change has been more to steer people away from accidental or intentional AOW/SBS/SBR from the overly vague "Firearm" classification. The all seem to make it more clear that there is a definition of a modern "pistol". Due to ADA in my opinion braces won't be going anywhere and the recent actions seem to be protecting them in a way.
True you can buy it without a buffer tube installed. But here is where they get you.
When it was approved as a brace it was approved while on a standard carbine buffer tube.
Also when shopping for the sba3 brace it says it comes with a buffer tube that is of the same length as a standard carbine buffer tube. Are is listed in item description as bring design to fit on standard carbine buffer tubes.
The law enforcement I talked to about doing what the OP has asked us. Said straight up if I'm stopped and my pistol is checked and it doesn't have a carbine or pistol buffer tube in it.
I'm going to jail for having a illegally owned sbr.
Their exact word was the braces are designed for a carbine buffer tube any other tube is a modification and those illegal in the eyes of the federal law.
Others can do as they wish, but law enforment in Louisiana says it's a no go. So that's who's opinion I'm following.
A4 --> A5 Buffer Tube conversion - HickLife - 08-23-2019
You could make the claim that the longer tube makes it easier to hold onto the pistol by moving the fulcrum point further back and it creates less pressure on the arm once strapped, thus more comfortable to hold onto, making it safer to shoot since you won’t be straining against the pain caused by the pressure on your arm.
Edit: I don't think it would be any different than putting a pistol blade on a longer smooth buffer tube.
A4 --> A5 Buffer Tube conversion - Lastrites - 08-23-2019
BTW I don't recall when or if the sba3 was ever approved by the atf as several of their older designs received an approval letter, IIRC their marketing hype of it being a culmination of approved technologies or something along those lines and they didn't receive an approval letter that was ever revealed to the publc. Hence another gray area that manufacture created when they potentially didn't follow through with submitting a sample to the branch. Which is just one reason why I never bought this particular product.
A4 --> A5 Buffer Tube conversion - Kswhitetails - 08-24-2019
The SBA3 comes with it's own Buffer tube. Or mine did. Does it come off the tube the same way a stock does? I got mine from PSA, and it came in their bag with no manual/documentation, which I thought was interesting. I just assumed it was permanently on the tube...
A4 --> A5 Buffer Tube conversion - HickLife - 08-24-2019
Kswhitetails Wrote:The SBA3 comes with it's own Buffer tube. Or mine did. Does it come off the tube the same way a stock does? I got mine from PSA, and it came in their bag with no manual/documentation, which I thought was interesting. I just assumed it was permanently on the tube...
Yup pulls off just like a regular stock. It's awesome because you don’t have to use a pistol buffer tube or some other proprietary tube that you would have to change out if you decide to register as an sbr.