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Status of the Next Gen Squad Weapon (NGSW)? - n9nwo - 07-24-2019
I have seen a couple of the vendors turning in their offering of cartridge and rifle. I gather that the Army wants to have a new cartridge/rifle in order to start arming a BCT by 2023.
Anyone hear much of what is going on?
Status of the Next Gen Squad Weapon (NGSW)? - stanc - 03-19-2020
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/03/19/next-generation-squad-weapon-procurement-numbers/
Status of the Next Gen Squad Weapon (NGSW)? - grayfox - 03-19-2020
I just wish they'd get their act together and buy the darn things..... then that will be the "Assault weapon" and the AR won't be an assault weapon any more, it'll be an ancient weapon!!! LOL!!!
Status of the Next Gen Squad Weapon (NGSW)? - n9nwo - 03-23-2020
We will have a lot of M4 carbines left. The Guard and Reserves already have weapons. Thus my guess is that they will convert them to .300 BLK with a 9" barrel and folding stock to make a compact PDW that is able to engage out to 300 meters.
The nice thing is that the work done for the 6.5 Grendel has been the base for this new round.
Status of the Next Gen Squad Weapon (NGSW)? - LRRPF52 - 03-23-2020
n9nwo Wrote:We will have a lot of M4 carbines left. The Guard and Reserves already have weapons. Thus my guess is that they will convert them to .300 BLK with a 9" barrel and folding stock to make a compact PDW that is able to engage out to 300 meters.
The nice thing is that the work done for the 6.5 Grendel has been the base for this new round.
Where are you seeing anything that would indicate the National Guards and Reserves converting to .300 BLK with 9" barrels?
The only mention of .300 BLK conversions has been for a small amount of PDWs in SOCOM for ADVON parties and maybe some SR work, to replace the MP5SDs and MP5A3s.
Status of the Next Gen Squad Weapon (NGSW)? - n9nwo - 03-27-2020
LRRPF52 Wrote:Where are you seeing anything that would indicate the National Guards and Reserves converting to .300 BLK with 9" barrels?
The only mention of .300 BLK conversions has been for a small amount of PDWs in SOCOM for ADVON parties and maybe some SR work, to replace the MP5SDs and MP5A3s.
that is not what I was attempting to say. If the Active side goes for a new rifle/SAW in 6.8mm then what will they do with the M4 stock they have? The Guard and Reserves are saturated with weapons. And there is move to not transfer to the police. So what do you do with all those M4s? My thought was to convert them to a PDW (9 to 10 inch barrel) and have the support troops use them. The military has long wanted a PDW that could hit out to 300 meters. 300 BLK (7.62x35) would do that. The M1/2 carbine was the first PDW (.3 USC or 7.62x33). The 300 BLK was designed to compete with the 9mm pistol. It has much of the same benefits as did the M1 Carbine.
Status of the Next Gen Squad Weapon (NGSW)? - stanc - 03-27-2020
n9nwo Wrote:that is not what I was attempting to say. If the Active side goes for a new rifle/SAW in 6.8mm then what will they do with the M4 stock they have?The 6.8 NGSW is planned to be issued only to infantry. The M4 carbine will remain in service and continue to be used by other Army personnel.
I expect that any M4 carbines which become surplus to US military needs (due to NGSW fielding) will go in storage, and/or to foreign militaries.
Status of the Next Gen Squad Weapon (NGSW)? - n9nwo - 03-28-2020
I still see a PDW made from the M4 in 300 BLK. Doing the mission that the M1/2 Carbine did. More than a machine pistol or pistol as it does not use a pistol caliber.
Status of the Next Gen Squad Weapon (NGSW)? - n9nwo - 03-28-2020
nice comparison for the 300 BLK vs 6.5 Grendel
https://www.chuckhawks.com/compared_6-5_6-8_300_350.html
Status of the Next Gen Squad Weapon (NGSW)? - LRRPF52 - 03-28-2020
n9nwo Wrote:that is not what I was attempting to say. If the Active side goes for a new rifle/SAW in 6.8mm then what will they do with the M4 stock they have? The Guard and Reserves are saturated with weapons. And there is move to not transfer to the police. So what do you do with all those M4s? My thought was to convert them to a PDW (9 to 10 inch barrel) and have the support troops use them. The military has long wanted a PDW that could hit out to 300 meters. 300 BLK (7.62x35) would do that. The M1/2 carbine was the first PDW (.3 USC or 7.62x33). The 300 BLK was designed to compete with the 9mm pistol. It has much of the same benefits as did the M1 Carbine.
Since armor defeat has been more and more of a requirement since the 1970s in service rifles and LMGs, and PDWs in the 1990s with the NATO PDW programs that resulted in the FN 5.7x28mm and Hk 4.6x30 PDW cartridges, it wouldn't make any sense to mess around with 300 BLK. Then again, it doesn't make sense to mess with 9mm but they're doing that as we speak.
Status of the Next Gen Squad Weapon (NGSW)? - stanc - 06-10-2021
From Tony Williams' Military Guns & Ammo forum.
Unconfirmed rumors regarding the NGSW program:
Quote:1. SIG is the leading contender
2. Textron is performing well, but its weapons are more complex than the SIG offering, so are liked less
3. Recoil is still significant despite mitigation devices
4. Chamber pressure is causing excess barrel and bolt wear
5. The US Army will likely adopt a second non-AP loading of the 6.8 mm and this could well become the primary standard round
6. The most significant rumour is that once testing concludes and a winner is selected, the US Army may decide NOT to field NGSW and continue with legacy calibres. This is because the whole effort and cost of NGSW may not be justifiable.
Status of the Next Gen Squad Weapon (NGSW)? - biodsl - 06-10-2021
Thanks, Stan. I quote two economists
"There's no such thing as a free lunch" ~ Milton Friedman
"There are no solutions. There are only trade-offs" ~ Thomas Sowell
Status of the Next Gen Squad Weapon (NGSW)? - grayfox - 06-11-2021
80 ksi is pushing the limits in a rifle, regardless of what they think. A whole host of unforeseen problems are waiting in the wings.
Personally I think the next great leap forward will be either laser-guided bullets or direct-energy weapons...
"set your weapons to Stun..." - Darth
Bulk armor can always be defeated by pin-point bullet placement, into a weak spot.
Status of the Next Gen Squad Weapon (NGSW)? - A5BLASTER - 06-11-2021
So in summery.
It's still to dam heavy.
It still kicks to dam hard.
It's still a ultra stupid mag and burns barrels.
Its ammo is too forward thinking and to expensive.
End of summary, We will keep useing what we got and spend more money advancing the 22 cal bullet. Sorry tax payers we waisted millions of your dollars for nothing again.
Sincerely. DOD.
Status of the Next Gen Squad Weapon (NGSW)? - Fess - 06-12-2021
The money has not been completely wasted. Projects like this one can push the state of the art foreword. Part of the project, for example is advanced fire-control systems that would permit more precise shooting. The intention was to permit the average soldier to hit long-range targets as well a a designated marksman. The most basic are the "disturbed reticle" scopes that find the range and provide the corresponding aiming point. More advanced ones help recognize targets and only fire when a hit is assured. Some would track the bullet and correct the aiming point based on that. Some of the systems are even more "Buck Rogers" and share information that can be plotted on maps.
To give an idea of what is already out there, the French FELIN system has some of the data sharing functions, image intensifiers, and, if I understand correctly the ability for some rifles to mount cameras and share the images to others in the squad (comes in handy to locate the source of gunfire when the squad is pinned down behind a barrier). That system is crude compared to what the US is looking at, but it is in the field and being tested.
One of the reasons that the new cartridge was high-velocity and low-drag was to increase the effective range against targets. 5.56x45 just does not have a lot of energy left at 600+ yards. The 5.56x45 and 7.62x51 (and 338 Lapua, for that matter) have limited range because they were designed with OAL's for relatively stubby bullets. They can't use long, sleek high-bc bullets that would make optimum use of these new fire control systems.
Status of the Next Gen Squad Weapon (NGSW)? - biodsl - 06-12-2021
Fess Wrote:The 5.56x45 and 7.62x51 (and 338 Lapua, for that matter) have limited range because they were designed with OAL's for relatively stubby bullets. They can't use long, sleek high-bc bullets that would make optimum use of these new fire control systems.
Why did they adopt the Lapua over the Norma?
[ATTACH=CONFIG]17938[/ATTACH]
Status of the Next Gen Squad Weapon (NGSW)? - Fess - 06-14-2021
biodsl Wrote:Why did they adopt the Lapua over the Norma?The Lapua was developed first. Like the 5.56x34 and 7.62x51, the use of long, high BC bullets was not seen as a priority for some reason. The 338 Norma was made as an improvement to the Lapua, since it allowed longer, sleeker bullets. As near as I can tell, these days when the Lapua is chosen over the Norma, it is mainly because it has already become a "standard" military cartridge.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]17938[/ATTACH]
Back in 2014, when General Dynamics developed the Lightweight Medium Machine Gun (LWMMG), they chose the 338 NORMA because its longer bullet would permit more varied payloads (tracers, etc). I have seen occasional suggestions that the 338 Norma has slightly better barrel life, but nothing conclusive.
In some ways, I see a similarity between the 338 Norma/338 Lapua duo and the 6.5 Creedmoor/260 Remington. The younger cartridges trade some powder volume for bullet length and higher BC.
Status of the Next Gen Squad Weapon (NGSW)? - Fess - 06-15-2021
Sorry for being off topic, but another quick note on the 338 Lapua vs Norma Magnum. For a long time there were virtually no .338 bullets available that could take advantage of the ability of the Norma to use longer-ogive, higher BC bullets. You can see this in the photo posted. Both use the same bullet, so there is no ballistic advantage in this case. For civilian shooters, one of the big advantages of the Norma is that it could use the same bullets as the Lapua while utilizing shorter actions. For current military machinegun use however, a tracer round must be developed* and these tend to be significantly longer than the "ball" rounds. The geometry of the 338 Norma Mag allows less bullet intrusion into the case.
Getting back to the NGSW cartridges, I have seen nothing about tracers for the Automatic Rifle/Light Machinegun version. Has anyone else seen anything?
* It is possible that a traditional tracer round might not be needed for some future applications. A lot of work has been going into "One-Way Luminescent" (OWL) tracers that use a brightly glowing substance on the base of a standard bullet.
Status of the Next Gen Squad Weapon (NGSW)? - A5BLASTER - 06-15-2021
Fess Wrote:The money has not been completely wasted. Projects like this one can push the state of the art foreword. Part of the project, for example is advanced fire-control systems that would permit more precise shooting. The intention was to permit the average soldier to hit long-range targets as well a a designated marksman. The most basic are the "disturbed reticle" scopes that find the range and provide the corresponding aiming point. More advanced ones help recognize targets and only fire when a hit is assured. Some would track the bullet and correct the aiming point based on that. Some of the systems are even more "Buck Rogers" and share information that can be plotted on maps.
To give an idea of what is already out there, the French FELIN system has some of the data sharing functions, image intensifiers, and, if I understand correctly the ability for some rifles to mount cameras and share the images to others in the squad (comes in handy to locate the source of gunfire when the squad is pinned down behind a barrier). That system is crude compared to what the US is looking at, but it is in the field and being tested.
One of the reasons that the new cartridge was high-velocity and low-drag was to increase the effective range against targets. 5.56x45 just does not have a lot of energy left at 600+ yards. The 5.56x45 and 7.62x51 (and 338 Lapua, for that matter) have limited range because they were designed with OAL's for relatively stubby bullets. They can't use long, sleek high-bc bullets that would make optimum use of these new fire control systems.
That money could have been better spent on better triggers and more marksmanship training if they wanted too improve probability of kill per shot taken.
But agreed 556 isn't capable of stopping power at extended ranges. Well at least without designing a heavier more sleeker bullet that can be used from the 556 cases. But honestly the 556 case is out of room in the ar/m4/m16 action at are about 80 groans.
All this mess about the platform being outdated, is just that hogwash, the platform isn't out dated the ammo and caliber is outdated.
If they really wanted to upgrade, they would speak a bolt made from armet or a bigger bolt/barrel extention and upgrade too a grendel cased caliber and maintain 60k pressure they seem to like.
Do that and they retain their part comparability to most possible with existing weapons and give the war fighter then needed punch at extended ranges.
Now if I could just landed a mil contract to build that cartridge for them, I would have it made lmao.
Status of the Next Gen Squad Weapon (NGSW)? - stanc - 06-15-2021
Fess Wrote:Getting back to the NGSW cartridges, I have seen nothing about tracers for the Automatic Rifle/Light Machinegun version. Has anyone else seen anything?I've not seen anything yet, but if NGSW is adopted and fielded, I expect that Tracer and other types will be developed, just as was done with previous calibers.
![[Image: 556mm_ammo.jpg]](https://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/rifle/5.56mm/556mm_ammo.jpg)