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Testing and Evaluation of DRACOS 6.5 Grendel barrel - HuntTXhogs - 06-06-2019
[video=youtube;lrvNDbtWy1I]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrvNDbtWy1I[/video]
Im putting this up on the board for casual conversation and to provide data points which may or may not be helpful for those who are in the market for a Grendel barrel.
It is too soon for a Pros versus Cons list but I am making a list
Follow up videos parts will be more focused on ammo related observations - look for those here (in this thread) over the next few weeks.
Disclaimers:
I didnt buy the barrel, this is a straight up T&E with no strings attached - I told DRACOS Id always wanted to try out the Straight Jacket system and now that it has come wrapped in Grendel packaging we mutually agreed that shooting my ammo surplus with feedback on my experience to them and here could be useful.
I am not an engineer, I dont wear a white lab coat in my 9-5 job, so some may have questions or take issue with the validity of my data and testing methods. Im pretty much of the belief that close enough is good enough and that the things Im trying are rattling around in the minds of others who have questions about the barrel technology - so learn from my mistake
More to follow
Testing and Evaluation of DRACOS 6.5 Grendel barrel - BIGHORN66 - 06-06-2019
Nice but Damn!!
$650.00 for the barrel.
Testing and Evaluation of DRACOS 6.5 Grendel barrel - sbowhuntr - 06-06-2019
To rich for my blood, looks nice but does the $650+ price tag come with an knats eye accuracy guarantee? I can get 4 group buy barrels for that much.
Testing and Evaluation of DRACOS 6.5 Grendel barrel - Djgrendel - 06-06-2019
Good initial test. Interested to see the rest. But for the price, I don't think it's worth the investment. Glad to see people are trying to create the next best improvement. But until something incredible comes along I think we will just have minimal gains or loss.
Testing and Evaluation of DRACOS 6.5 Grendel barrel - HuntTXhogs - 06-06-2019
The Straight Jacket (SJ) system is not new technology, I believe in 2019 it ages out to right about 10 years in production.
I'm not absolutely sure of the business relationships and agreements between the company that created the SJ tech, that company being Teludyne Tech Industries (TTI). I'm assuming that Falkor Defense and DRACOS barrels bought the franchising or license to produce the SJ and that there are enough differences in the way in which they employ it to keep them from being in direct competition.
I hear you guys on the cost - from what I know of Teludyne they are even more expensive but they'll work your barrel you provide into the SJ system as opposed to DRACOS that sells you their barrel stock (I don't know the origin of it).
As to the claims, there are many articles on the SJ system - and I can tell you that most of the "user comments" are either in favor of it working or strongly opposed. MOST of these comments are complete wild arse guesses as to what the "compound material" between the steel core barrel and outer aluminum jacket do. I know I could probably shoot 1k rounds through the DRACOS and not know any more about the material and how it works, its just one of the proprietary aspects of the SJ system that I'm sure is apt to slight refinements as chemicals and compounds are innovated and refined....
*** It is NOT the intent of my T&E to prove or disprove the science and marketing features described by either company selling the SJ system. Instead I'm going into this with eyes wide open and open minded to be surprised by what I see (good or bad) ***
That said, I will comment that based on in-depth research over the last few years of the SJ system that I believe it was originally engineered for competition shooters who were looking for absolute extreme accuracy. At the time the "Palma" profile barrels were the mainstay on the competition benches and those barrels on average were 6 - 12 lbs in an effort to be as rigid as possible. When the marketing folks of the SJ say they have a rigid design that is lighter weight that heavy profile barrels - it is my assumption that they mean the "Palma" profiles and not necessarily what the market has to bear currently as Bull Barrels.
I wish I had the knowledge and perspective of 15 + years to be able to say first hand what AR15 barrels were available back then and which companies were the "top tier" but another assumption I've drawn up in my mind related to SJ systems claims of "radical decrease in group size" has to be against what I would call rack grade M4 barrels from 10 years back. The current barrel supply options to us today have us realizing probably the most wide spread accuracy revolution of the last 50 years in the semi auto consumer rifle market. I myself have changed barrels like they're socks if they don't shoot < 1" at 100 yards with regularity and the price of "My" average barrel has been $ 350 or less so we're talking ARP, Ballistic Advantage, McGowen, Anderson, Diamondback, X-caliber, Bear Creek so on and so on. So in a nutshell I believe we are seeing diminished gains in the accuracy department between SJ tech and CURRENT barrel options.
Another marketing claim of the SJ is less recoil due to the barrel being locked into the aluminum sleeve thereby reducing "barrel whip" - less barrel whip translates to less recoil. Well I can say that I haven't noticed any less felt recoil after 200 rounds of 6.5 Grendel but that doesn't necessarily negate the claim or concept because the SJ systems have been employed on sniper rifle systems in the 300 Win Mag caliber and perhaps at that level of recoil impulse and perhaps in a bolt action design you can perceive the difference....
LOT of variables here folks - and I'm not going to defend the marketing or rush to support the claim, I'm just going to casually voice my assumptions and share what I've read and what I observe with this particular barrel.
Working now on the ammo results from last weeks range trip, hopefully i can get those up by week's end.
Testing and Evaluation of DRACOS 6.5 Grendel barrel - Double Naught Spy - 06-07-2019
I added a hunt video to the hunting section for where the Dracos was used to take hogs...
http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?19969-First-Hogs-with-6-5-Grendel-DRACOS-Straightjacket-Barrel&p=232397#post232397
Testing and Evaluation of DRACOS 6.5 Grendel barrel - grayfox - 06-07-2019
Hmmm. Interesting. Yeah I noted that the dracos stayed hotter pretty much throughout. Heat transfer across the mid-layer (epoxy? or something?) may not be as efficient as thought.
Maybe I missed it but didn't see anything about it being a stiffer/no-stringing barrel vs the d-back... but if that's a claim by the mfr seems as though the dracos' larger diameter would give it some advantage -- since larger diameters are relatively stiffer; of course that generalization goes for all-steel single material barrels. But if dracos is going to make such a claim for its barrels, I'd have 2 caveats:
1. They should put their barrels up against barrels more in line with dracos' $$ selling point, ie, a Lilja, Krieger or bartlein.
2. The two barrels should be of similar diameters to best compare relative stiffness... in fact since weight is also a factor go ahead and flute the regular Lilja/Krieger/Bartlein. Final retail cost will still be in the ball-park of the dracos I think.
Finally I would also think that the regular barrel will have been properly stress relieved. Now you'd have a more apples-to-apples comparison for target accuracy/stringing/what-all.
If the dracos will sell for more like $350, then compare it to those $350-ish barrels. But at $650 this is what I think.
Testing and Evaluation of DRACOS 6.5 Grendel barrel - HuntTXhogs - 06-07-2019
Gray fox: valid points Sir!
I decided to use the Diamondback barrel because it was the same length as the DRACOS and has been a pretty decent shooting barrel across some loads I’ve been working up over the winter and spring.
If I had some of those meatier high tier barrels I’d of tried it.
I use my grendel’s as tools and don’t baby them , DNS puts way more mileage on equipment than I and I was thankful that he gave the upper a run while I’m out of pocket for the next couple of days.
My approach to observing whether the stringing is occurring with the DRACOS is as follows:
[video=youtube;x8jYLx2d2Z4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8jYLx2d2Z4[/video]
Wait till you see part 3 ....
Testing and Evaluation of DRACOS 6.5 Grendel barrel - grayfox - 06-07-2019
HTH I'll watch this one a bit later, Longest Day is on...!!!
Was not knocking your barrel choice, just commenting on if the vendor wants to make marketing points, well, keep it level playing field is all!
Times I wish I was out there chasing hogs with you guys, love what your doing!
Testing and Evaluation of DRACOS 6.5 Grendel barrel - HuntTXhogs - 06-07-2019
No issue at all with your stance Gray Fox and we do what we can with the hogs but I can’t keep up with DNS - he’s quite the hunter !
Watch this one too
[video=youtube;NvyDwA-Tbpk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvyDwA-Tbpk[/video]
Testing and Evaluation of DRACOS 6.5 Grendel barrel - Double Naught Spy - 06-07-2019
Excellent job. I appreciate the time and effort you are putting into documenting the testing.
grayfox, I watched a couple of the other Dracos barrel tests. There big selling point is that their barrels don't get as hot inside and hence remain more stable, hence retaining accuracy, right?
This video confused me. They dumped 60 rounds of .223 (2 mags) and the shooter held on to the outside of the barrel and noted that it was still didn't feel hot (120 degrees). They noted that the barrel sleeve was drawing out the heat from the inside. Now, here is what I don't understand. If the heat isn't transferring to the exterior, then the heat must be retained within, yes?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Me6B30c-tJE
Maybe somebody can school me on thermodynamics.
Testing and Evaluation of DRACOS 6.5 Grendel barrel - A5BLASTER - 06-07-2019
Double Naught Spy Wrote:Excellent job. I appreciate the time and effort you are putting into documenting the testing.
grayfox, I watched a couple of the other Dracos barrel tests. There big selling point is that their barrels don't get as hot inside and hence remain more stable, hence retaining accuracy, right?
This video confused me. They dumped 60 rounds of .223 (2 mags) and the shooter held on to the outside of the barrel and noted that it was still didn't feel hot (120 degrees). They noted that the barrel sleeve was drawing out the heat from the inside. Now, here is what I don't understand. If the heat isn't transferring to the exterior, then the heat must be retained within, yes?
Maybe somebody can school me on thermodynamics.
Thermodynamics- The subject of being paid lots of money too say something isn't hot, while secretly it's burning the skin off your palm lmao.
Testing and Evaluation of DRACOS 6.5 Grendel barrel - centerfire - 06-07-2019
grayfox Wrote:Hmmm. Interesting. Yeah I noted that the dracos stayed hotter pretty much throughout. Heat transfer across the mid-layer (epoxy? or something?) may not be as efficient as thought.
Maybe I missed it but didn't see anything about it being a stiffer/no-stringing barrel vs the d-back... but if that's a claim by the mfr seems as though the dracos' larger diameter would give it some advantage -- since larger diameters are relatively stiffer; of course that generalization goes for all-steel single material barrels. But if dracos is going to make such a claim for its barrels, I'd have 2 caveats:
1. They should put their barrels up against barrels more in line with dracos' $$ selling point, ie, a Lilja, Krieger or bartlein.
2. The two barrels should be of similar diameters to best compare relative stiffness... in fact since weight is also a factor go ahead and flute the regular Lilja/Krieger/Bartlein. Final retail cost will still be in the ball-park of the dracos I think.
Finally I would also think that the regular barrel will have been properly stress relieved. Now you'd have a more apples-to-apples comparison for target accuracy/stringing/what-all.
If the dracos will sell for more like $350, then compare it to those $350-ish barrels. But at $650 this is what I think.
Let's put it up against a proof barrel.
Testing and Evaluation of DRACOS 6.5 Grendel barrel - Djgrendel - 06-07-2019
I agree with your purpose huntTX. Keep it coming. I have no doubt that their barrels do some of what they say than can do. Curious to see how well the internal barrel heat is transferred. As with all things, you have many variables to consider. Would be neat to have one of their tubes made with temp sensors built into the barrel assembly. Granted it would change some of its characteristics. Anyway, carry on. Cool project
Testing and Evaluation of DRACOS 6.5 Grendel barrel - grayfox - 06-07-2019
Double Naught Spy Wrote:Excellent job. I appreciate the time and effort you are putting into documenting the testing.
grayfox, I watched a couple of the other Dracos barrel tests. There big selling point is that their barrels don't get as hot inside and hence remain more stable, hence retaining accuracy, right?
This video confused me. They dumped 60 rounds of .223 (2 mags) and the shooter held on to the outside of the barrel and noted that it was still didn't feel hot (120 degrees). They noted that the barrel sleeve was drawing out the heat from the inside. Now, here is what I don't understand. If the heat isn't transferring to the exterior, then the heat must be retained within, yes?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Me6B30c-tJE
Maybe somebody can school me on thermodynamics.
In terms of thermo, there are actually 2 ways the outside could be cooler than a different barrel, 1) the heat is trapped inside (the mid-layer in effect acting as an insulator) so the outside feels cooler. 2) The overall heat transfer is faster than a traditional barrel (the mid-layer and aluminum acting as a faster conductor) so the outside would be cooler and the inside would be cooler. In #2 the heat is removed from the barrel so it won't feel as hot. Aluminum is a faster heat transfer material so it would depend on whether the mid layer is faster or slower at the Xfer...
I've never dumped 2 mags of 223 (60 rounds) that fast so I don't have any personal knowledge of the final temp of said barrel, I'm sure it's really hot...... BUT in my shooting scenarios I don't expect to do so, thus any advantage offered there is not much of a draw for me. If I had $650 for my barrel, like earlier I'd probably get a fluted Lilja or something, which would also be super stiff plus faster cooling than a std barrel -- not to mention embarrassingly accurate. "Embarrassing" in that I wouldn't have any more excuses for Stonehendges or scatter-prints!!! ROTFL!!!
But that's just me. I am glad someone is trying out new designs and letting real shooters test them in the real world -- that's how progress is made.
Testing and Evaluation of DRACOS 6.5 Grendel barrel - Double Naught Spy - 06-07-2019
grayfox Wrote:In terms of thermo, there are actually 2 ways the outside could be cooler than a different barrel, 1) the heat is trapped inside (the mid-layer in effect acting as an insulator) so the outside feels cooler. 2) The overall heat transfer is faster than a traditional barrel (the mid-layer and aluminum acting as a faster conductor) so the outside would be cooler and the inside would be cooler. In #2 the heat is removed from the barrel so it won't feel as hot. Aluminum is a faster heat transfer material so it would depend on whether the mid layer is faster or slower at the Xfer...
I think the answer is in Fourier's Law...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_conduction
And the fact that it takes more energy to heat aluminum than it does to heat steel.
Testing and Evaluation of DRACOS 6.5 Grendel barrel - centerfire - 06-07-2019
grayfox Wrote:In terms of thermo, there are actually 2 ways the outside could be cooler than a different barrel, 1) the heat is trapped inside (the mid-layer in effect acting as an insulator) so the outside feels cooler. 2) The overall heat transfer is faster than a traditional barrel (the mid-layer and aluminum acting as a faster conductor) so the outside would be cooler and the inside would be cooler. In #2 the heat is removed from the barrel so it won't feel as hot. Aluminum is a faster heat transfer material so it would depend on whether the mid layer is faster or slower at the Xfer...
I've never dumped 2 mags of 223 (60 rounds) that fast so I don't have any personal knowledge of the final temp of said barrel, I'm sure it's really hot...... BUT in my shooting scenarios I don't expect to do so, thus any advantage offered there is not much of a draw for me. If I had $650 for my barrel, like earlier I'd probably get a fluted Lilja or something, which would also be super stiff plus faster cooling than a std barrel -- not to mention embarrassingly accurate. "Embarrassing" in that I wouldn't have any more excuses for Stonehendges or scatter-prints!!! ROTFL!!!
But that's just me. I am glad someone is trying out new designs and letting real shooters test them in the real world -- that's how progress is made.
I've never owned or shot a DRACOS barrel. Proof Research carbon barrels do what you describe in your second scenario. Historically CF barrel wraps were effectively just insulators that kept the outside cool and trapped heat in the steel liner. Proof uses some type of ceramic epoxy that is more conductive than steel. You can visibly see the heat dissipation causing mirage where a normal steel barrel wouldn't. I bring that up because DRACOS very well could work the same principle.
As for the price, I don't know what liner they are using. If it is a high quality single point cut rifled blank then the price is in line with any other high end barrel. When I was looking for a fluted cut rifled Grendel barrel they were all in the $500 to $900 price range. The value is going to depend on the blank DRACOS uses though. If it's an ER Shaw blank then obviously the price won't line up anymore.
Testing and Evaluation of DRACOS 6.5 Grendel barrel - HuntTXhogs - 06-08-2019
[video=youtube;vOT9OSqei-E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOT9OSqei-E[/video]
One more range report to publish (123 gr American Gunner) hopefully tomorrow.
Next week I will move away from ammo testing and look to explore tuning the gas system, cold shot bore shift, and internal "core" barrel temps.
Testing and Evaluation of DRACOS 6.5 Grendel barrel - HuntTXhogs - 06-08-2019
[video=youtube;EN-SLy0lnrw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EN-SLy0lnrw[/video]
Testing and Evaluation of DRACOS 6.5 Grendel barrel - HuntTXhogs - 06-08-2019
[video=youtube;j9f9BOtznsg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9f9BOtznsg[/video]
Last one for awhile - Enjoy