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+--- Thread: Devils advocate (/showthread.php?tid=17878)
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Devils advocate - Dempsy1 - 12-31-2018
While Im still relatively new to the 6.5 Im VERY happy and impressed. What Id like to see is reasons to stay with 5.56 over the Grendel. Ill probably always have both just looking for some talking points for the future.
1) 5.56 is lighter means can carry more ammo
2) more/better mags for 5.56-i prefer Magpul or Lancer
3) Ammo price/availablity I shoot a lot of Wolf Gold 5.56 steel case is gross
Looking for ways around these.
Devils advocate - Double Naught Spy - 12-31-2018
Okay, I have to ask about #1, meaning you can carry more ammo. I gotta know, just what are the circumstances which you have a problem carrying a sufficient amount of ammo that the size and weight difference of Grendel makes less attractive. I am having trouble fathoming the civilian circumstances where this is a significant factor.
Devils advocate - montana - 12-31-2018
Dempsy1 Wrote:While Im still relatively new to the 6.5 Im VERY happy and impressed. What Id like to see is reasons to stay with 5.56 over the Grendel. Ill probably always have both just looking for some talking points for the future.
1) 5.56 is lighter means can carry more ammo
2) more/better mags for 5.56-i prefer Magpul or Lancer
3) Ammo price/availablity I shoot a lot of Wolf Gold 5.56 steel case is gross
Looking for ways around these.
Your hypothetical is like asking for reasons why you need fewer tools for your tool box. Figure out your real needs and purpose and pick the tools for the job. Simple!
Devils advocate - depletedyourcranium - 12-31-2018
I would add lower recoil, flatter shooting out to 500 yards (with more wind drift), and probably more longevity in the life of the bolt (though I think this is mostly alleviated with the actual .136 depth bolts.)
Counterpoints to your lists:
1: Ammo weight does not realistically matter. In some apocalypse fantasy where you're trudging through the wasteland avoiding plague ridden survivors, sure, lighter ammo might be useful. In any conceivable conventional use, hunting, plinking, self defense, ammo weight is not going to make any difference. And if you're in the military you dont get to pick your gun much less your caliber, so that's a moot point.
2: Sure, more mags. Better mags? I don't know. I've never had any issues with the elanders I have. There will never be true polymer mags in normal capacity for size like PMAGs for the 6.5 in a regular AR15. To me it's an inconvenience but not a dealbreaker.
3: Unless it is adopted by a huge military force, 6.5 Grr will never be as cheap as 5.56. However, theres no reason it cant be as cheap as what we're currently seeing with .300 Blk (about 40 cents per round). I would be surprised if we don't see cheap FMJ brass cased offerings from all the big 3 ammo makers in the next 5 years. And theres always Wolf steel case, its definitely not gross.
Devils advocate - imaguy3 - 12-31-2018
I still like my 5.56 if I know shots will be under 200, or I don't want to do as much damage to the animal (like for jackrabbit hunting), or smaller predators like fox/bobcat where I may want to save the pelt. Plus it's fun and cheap to plink with the 5.56.
Devils advocate - CWOZ - 12-31-2018
I figure If I have to worry about how much ammo I can pack, I might as well stay home and be invaded comfortably.
I think as the cartridge grows, other companies will get on the ammo and mag band wagon. D&H came out with a Grendel mag recently and the one I have works fine.
Ammo availability is a problem locally, but ammo is a click away and delivered to your door. With the exception of steel case Wolf, Grendel ammo seems to be primarily aimed at match or hunting, so in my mind, much higher quality than FMJ blasting ammo, so it costs more.
CWOZ
Devils advocate - RMiller - 12-31-2018
For when your son wants to mag dump a a couple hundred rounds. That is when I really like my 556.
Devils advocate - Dempsy1 - 12-31-2018
Double Naught Spy Wrote:Okay, I have to ask about #1, meaning you can carry more ammo. I gotta know, just what are the circumstances which you have a problem carrying a sufficient amount of ammo that the size and weight difference of Grendel makes less attractive. I am having trouble fathoming the civilian circumstances where this is a significant factor.
Thinking of ammo for long matches and an 800 round trading course Im taking this spring.
Devils advocate - worthen86ford - 01-01-2019
Competitive shooting outside of PRS and high volume training are valid reasons for maintaining a 5.56. I shoot USPSA and run 9mm because a thousand rounds a month minimum on trainihg is a lot of money on my budget even with 9mm. Sure, reloading or running steel case could save some dimes but i dont have the time for reloading with a young family and Id prefer to keep steel cases out of my guns for extractor life.
If you do high volume training and/or competitions that can become high volume then the grendel might not be the only rifle caliber you should own. It would be like me trying to only own 357 sig for carry, training and competition. No way could i afford it. For me i use my grendel as primarily a hunting rifle with secondary uses as a tactical weapon for self defense / modern musket should 1776 things happen again.
I try to be a minimalist as best i can so grendel has become my mainstay rifle caliber and 9mm for pistol. Sounds like to me you ought to keep a 5.56 around. I quit shooting mine after i got the grendel so only my stubborn wife still has one (or 2).
Devils advocate - Wanderson - 01-01-2019
Most plentiful ammo & biggest variety. 5.56 ARs run from the cheapest to the top tier.
Best mag selection. Want 60 or 100 rnd drums? 5.56
Pencil profile barrels. My 5.56 upper is a lightweight 14.5” mid length, so it’s the lightest & softest shooter in my collection.
In ARs I shoot 5.56, 9mm, 7.62x39, 5.45x39, .300bo and now 6.5 Grendel. Once I burn thru my stack of surplus 5.45x39 I’ll probably retire that upper since 7n6 isn’t imported anymore. Anything imported is subject to political changes. A panic buy might jump the price of 5.56 or 9mm but it’s also gonna come back.
Only things 5.56 don’t do well is take down a deer or a hog or perform ‘optimally’ thru short barrels. 7.62x39, .300bo & Grendel do those much better.
Devils advocate - bj139 - 01-01-2019
montana Wrote:Your hypothetical is like asking for reasons why you need fewer tools for your tool box. Figure out your real needs and purpose and pick the tools for the job. Simple!
Genius, montana. You always get directly to the issue at hand. I need a bigger tool box.
Devils advocate - Sixoeight - 01-01-2019
In today's real world (not SHTF wasteland world) I don't personally have a single use for 5.56 except plinking. And frankly that is the only excuse I need to keep it around!
But if I am hunting with an AR it will be grendel. Grendel does everything 5.56 does and then some.
Devils advocate - Dempsy1 - 01-01-2019
Im obviously using both now and will continue to, but I need good CHEAP FMJ 6.5G & some lancer mags!
Devils advocate - NugginFutz - 01-01-2019
It's like this, Dempsy1:
You ask a hypothetical question without any qualifications or criteria. Yes, you later added a need for long matches and a training course, but never mentioned if that will be your rifle's main job.
Re #1: I don't know which training course you have in mind, but the few I've taken did not require me to carry my entire load out between each stage over the multiple days of training. I only needed what could fit on my chest rig for any one stage, and even that was more than adequate. As such, it didn't matter which stack of 800 rounds weighed the most.
Having said that, I used my 5.56 for the run 'n gun or high volume scenarios. My 6.5 took center stage for all the DM portions where accuracy and distance mattered. (Yes, I took both to the courses.) The 6.5 also made confirmation of hits on steel much easier. My 5.56 became more difficult to shoot/see/hear past 400 or so (especially with canyon winds playing with the lighter shots).
As for what the rifle will be doing after training and matches; If the answer is "living in the safe", then it's quite simple. Buy/Build a weapon for those (and only those) uses. Select one with a steady supply of ammunition capable of meeting MPF and with reasonable accuracy. Ballistics, long range capability, and all the other Grendel selling points probably no longer matter.
Your best option, as you alluded to, may well be to get and use both. It worked for me.
Devils advocate - TomSawyerNW - 01-01-2019
bj139 Wrote:Genius, montana. You always get directly to the issue at hand. I need a bigger tool box.
More tools, the better!
Devils advocate - stanc - 01-01-2019
Dempsy1 Wrote:While Im still relatively new to the 6.5 Im VERY happy and impressed. What Id like to see is reasons to stay with 5.56 over the Grendel.I can't think of a single one. I detest 5.56 and got rid of my 5.56 rifles a long time ago.
Devils advocate - wrhoads - 01-03-2019
I've thought about this a lot lately. My conclusion is that 5.56 is adequate for everything one could ask an AR platform to do. Especially with the right ammo. 75gr Gold Dots were really an eye opener for me. And logistically, 5.56 makes more sense because it's everywhere. If you shoot grendel it's mainly because you want too, which is what we get to enjoy as American consumer/citizen.
Devils advocate - A5BLASTER - 01-03-2019
wrhoads Wrote:I've thought about this a lot lately. My conclusion is that 5.56 is adequate for everything one could ask an AR platform to do. Especially with the right ammo. 75gr Gold Dots were really an eye opener for me. And logistically, 5.56 makes more sense because it's everywhere. If you shoot grendel it's mainly because you want too, which is what we get to enjoy as American consumer/citizen.
If you shoot 223/556 it's because you want too.
Devils advocate - wrhoads - 01-03-2019
A5BLASTER Wrote:If you shoot 223/556 it's because you want too.
Fair enough. I choose 5.56 for every role except for a dedicated DMR/RECCE AR rifle, because that's where the strengths of the Grendel really come through. If we really want to play devils advocate we should ask ourselves the reasons why we're choosing the Grendel, and then why 5.56 won't satisfy those reasons.
Devils advocate - LRRPF52 - 01-03-2019
I'll probably never build a 5.56 with a barrel longer than 11.5" again.
Every time I go to look at parts for an 11.5" 5.56, I think about how well my 12" Grendel has been doing and what it brings to the table.
Working on another 12" Grendel as we speak. Just waiting on back-ordered parts.