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+--- Thread: Grendel upper? (/showthread.php?tid=1283)
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Grendel upper? - Brodady - 10-26-2011
Hey, I was thinking today, that for when the time comes that I am able to purchase or have a rifle purchased for me, where in the world will I be able to get a Grendel upper. It seems, from what musing around I have done that the Grendel uppers are sold out everywhere. Of course things could change but with these rifles raising in popularity, I foresee myself having a hard time locating one to buy.
Any advice?
-Brodady
Grendel upper? - LRRPF52 - 10-26-2011
Just put it together yourself. When I was 15, I would go into one of the local gun stores and drool over an SP1 they had on the rack for $499. One of the sales reps said he could build me an AR15 even better, but it sounded sketchy at the time. After buying 2 pre-ban AR15's in the early and mid 90's, I realized that I didn't need to buy off-the-shelf anymore, since the design is so modular.
Grendel upper? - Brodady - 10-26-2011
The 16" barrel appeals to me quite well but i feel that you guys might have opinions otherwise, if so what are they?
I don't think the 18" is to bad either
Thanks
-Brodady
Grendel upper? - jkingrph - 10-26-2011
I have a couple in 24" barrel, one with a 16". The two big one's have the Magpul PRS, non collaspable stock. the 16 has one of the pull to adjust carbine stock. The difference in handiness is immense, most of the difference being in the stock, not to say 8" of barrel does not make a difference.
One of the big rifles has a set of Troy battle sights, just like the carbine, and extra sight radius makes a difference for me when shooting irons.
Grendel upper? - Brodady - 10-26-2011
so would a 16 in barrel suffice? say for deer at 200yrds
Grendel upper? - m796rider - 10-26-2011
Brodady Wrote:so would a 16 in barrel suffice? say for deer at 200yrds
16" would be plenty for your stated application.
Grendel upper? - Whelenon - 10-26-2011
Finding a barrel can be a hang up, but they're out there. Initially, I wanted an 18" or 20" tube w/1-8 twist but settled for a 16" and don't regret it. Bought my barrel off this forum, got a good deal and it shoots sub-moa with both factory and reloads. GunBroker.com, Midway, Brownell's also have barrels for sale, just depends how much you want to spent. Go on-line keep an eye out, barrels are our there. The great thing is you can buy everthing you need for an upper on-line and don't need an FFL. If you don't have the tools to put it together any good gun shop will do it for a small fee if not for free.
And, no question the 16" barrel for deer ar 200yds, it's excellent. I built mine for deer and wouldn't hestitate out to 300yds, but that's just what I feel comfortable with. The Grendel with a 16" barrel is capable of longer shots than that.
Grendel upper? - Brodady - 10-26-2011
Okay, this helps a lot. When I get one, I think I'm going to go with the 16" which is an okay tactical length too I guess.
-Brodady
Grendel upper? - YutYut - 10-26-2011
I have a 20" that i plan to use on hogs and deer. Ill let you know how it does. My ideal tactical rifle would have a 12.5-14.5 in barrel.
Grendel upper? - StoneTower - 10-26-2011
I think some people choose a Grendel for the increased performance but then cripple the rifle be choosing too short of a barrel. The Grendel is not a handgun cartridge. The Grendel needs inches of barrel to burn all the powder. If powder is burned outside the barrel, you end up with a large amount of muzzle flash and lower velocity. If you want a rifle with a short barrel, one of the larger bore uppers (with are essentially a large pistol caliber) might be a better choice if you are going to cripple the rifle and only shoot inside 150-200 yards.
YMMV
Grendel upper? - m796rider - 10-26-2011
StoneTower Wrote:I think some people choose a Grendel for the increased performance but then cripple the rifle be choosing too short of a barrel. The Grendel is not a handgun cartridge. The Grendel needs inches of barrel to burn all the powder. If powder is burned outside the barrel, you end up with a large amount of muzzle flash and lower velocity. If you want a rifle with a short barrel, one of the larger bore uppers (with are essentially a large pistol caliber) might be a better choice if you are going to cripple the rifle and only shoot inside 150-200 yards.
YMMV
I actually don't think this at all. A Grendel with a 14.5" or 16" barrel has multiple practical applications and is very handy to boot. If you're chasing velocity or regularly shoot past 1,000 yards, then yes, you want a 24" barrel. But the vast majority of what a civilian uses a rifle for can be covered by a shorter barreled Grendel.
I see this same phenomenon in the .308 world. There are lots of .308 shooters out there that ridicule the use of anything with a barrel shorter than 22", yet the 18" and 16" guns are clearly proven performers at seemingly outlandish ranges. Powder and bullet technology march on, and these days the maneuverability and weight advantages of shorter barrels often outweigh the incremental performance penalties.
Grendel upper? - YutYut - 10-26-2011
StoneTower Wrote:I think some people choose a Grendel for the increased performance but then cripple the rifle be choosing too short of a barrel. The Grendel is not a handgun cartridge. The Grendel needs inches of barrel to burn all the powder. If powder is burned outside the barrel, you end up with a large amount of muzzle flash and lower velocity. If you want a rifle with a short barrel, one of the larger bore uppers (with are essentially a large pistol caliber) might be a better choice if you are going to cripple the rifle and only shoot inside 150-200 yards.i had the beowulf in mind. Whats the shortest barrel length that will give enough.time for the powder to burn up? Couldn't one use a faster burning powder to counteract this?
YMMV
Grendel upper? - Brodady - 10-26-2011
StoneTower Wrote:I think some people choose a Grendel for the increased performance but then cripple the rifle be choosing too short of a barrel. The Grendel is not a handgun cartridge. The Grendel needs inches of barrel to burn all the powder. If powder is burned outside the barrel, you end up with a large amount of muzzle flash and lower velocity. If you want a rifle with a short barrel, one of the larger bore uppers (with are essentially a large pistol caliber) might be a better choice if you are going to cripple the rifle and only shoot inside 150-200 yards.
YMMV
So do you think the 16" would suffice to burn off the powder?
Grendel upper? - rasp65 - 10-26-2011
Bro Most of the powder is burned in the first few inches of bullet travel. So a 16" will be fine. The advantage of the longer barrels is the pressure has a longer time to act on the bullet.
Grendel upper? - bwaites - 10-26-2011
YutYut Wrote:i had the beowulf in mind. Whats the shortest barrel length that will give enough.time for the powder to burn up? Couldn't one use a faster burning powder to counteract this?
The most popular big bore barrels are 16-18", and my Beowulf has pretty minimal muzzle flash at 16". Remember that the big bores use powder more related to magnum handguns and shotguns than what we typically think of as rifle powders.
I use mostly Lil Gun, designed for 20 gauge and 410 gauge shotguns, or IMR 4227. These powders are considerably faster than typical rifle powders.
Grendel upper? - Brodady - 10-27-2011
rasp65 Wrote:Bro Most of the powder is burned in the first few inches of bullet travel. So a 16" will be fine. The advantage of the longer barrels is the pressure has a longer time to act on the bullet.
Ahhh, thank you! Something else I have learn from the wonderful people here at this forum.
-Brodady
Grendel upper? - StoneTower - 10-27-2011
Ok...I am feeling a bit combative today....
I would be willing to bet that a .223 case necked up to 6.5mm would give about the same performance out of a 14" barrel as a 6.5 Grendel out of a 14" barrel. Sure you can shoot a 5.56 out of a 7.5" pistol build, but most of the energy of the 5.56 is not being used because either the powder is not being burned inside of the barrel (excessive muzzle flash) or the bullet exits the barrel before the pressure is able to accelerate the bullet the its potential velocity for a given load.If you are shooting factory Grendel loads out of a short barrel you are not getting the performance that the Grendel can deliver. There are reasons for using short barrels and having a rifle that uses the same cartridge as the guys in your unit is a big plus. Bolting a high performance motor in a Ford Pinto does not do justice to the high performance motor and does not give you a Nascar. If you want to build a short barrel rifle, choose something that is designed to work with a short barrel. The Grendel velocity numbers are what they are because of a 24" barrel. The compromise is somewhere between 19" & 20" for weight vs. velocity. If you looked at the velocity numbers for the Grendel with a 14" barrel and a 120 grain bullet, you would probably not be impressed.
Grendel upper? - Brodady - 10-27-2011
StoneTower Wrote:Ok...I am feeling a bit combative today....
If you are shooting factory Grendel loads out of a short barrel you are not getting the performance that the Grendel can deliver. There are reasons for using short barrels and having a rifle that uses the same cartridge as the guys in your unit is a big plus. Bolting a high performance motor in a Ford Pinto does not do justice to the high performance motor and does not give you a Nascar. If you want to build a short barrel rifle, choose something that is designed to work with a short barrel. The Grendel velocity numbers are what they are because of a 24" barrel. The compromise is somewhere between 19" & 20" for weight vs. velocity. If you looked at the velocity numbers for the Grendel with a 14" barrel and a 120 grain bullet, you would probably not be impressed.
I'm pretty sure we're talking 16" barrels here though right? And someone correct me if I'm wrong, not that I have any knowledge in this but what StoneTower is saying sounds reasonable enough.
-Brodady
Grendel upper? - Rambozo - 10-27-2011
I too would suggest building the upper. It's super easy, and you have control of the components. I would say that the two most critical components though, are the barrel and the optic.
On another note, barrel length should only be a concern if you are shooting long range, and if you are shooting long range, then there are better cartridges for it. I consider the Grendel to be adequate at medium ranges. So long as you keep the cartridge in perspective, you will find that it will perform quite well in an AR-15 with a shorter barrel. I certainly like it better than a .223.
Oh, and the powder doesn't burn within the first few inches of barrel. Lots of loads can have over burn. If you are concerned about such things, load a faster powder.
Grendel upper? - Clod Stomper - 10-27-2011
StoneTower Wrote:Ok...I am feeling a bit combative today....
If you are shooting factory Grendel loads out of a short barrel you are not getting the performance that the Grendel can deliver. There are reasons for using short barrels and having a rifle that uses the same cartridge as the guys in your unit is a big plus. Bolting a high performance motor in a Ford Pinto does not do justice to the high performance motor and does not give you a Nascar. If you want to build a short barrel rifle, choose something that is designed to work with a short barrel. The Grendel velocity numbers are what they are because of a 24" barrel. The compromise is somewhere between 19" & 20" for weight vs. velocity. If you looked at the velocity numbers for the Grendel with a 14" barrel and a 120 grain bullet, you would probably not be impressed.
I think there is something to this. Check out this wildcat: http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/65mm-Patriot-Combat-Car-t95187.html
I don't think anyone has checked velocity of that round from a shorter barrel yet, but I'm guessing that in a shorter barrel, the 5.56 case based round is more efficient. Not that one can achieve MORE velocity, but similar velocities. Of course, in a longer barrel, or with heavier bullets, the Grendel is going to win out.
I had been considering building either a lightweight pistol upper or 14.5" with a pinned flash suppressor in the PCC round primarily because of better efficiency in short barrels (plus being able to use 5.56 brass and magazines).
I have since shelved that idea in favor of the 7.62x40 Wilson Tactical. No point wasting 6.5 BCs in a short range firearm.
I have only fired a Grendel from 28", 18.5", 18" and 16" barrels. So far, my preferred barrel length is 18" to 18.5". The muzzle blast from the 16 is noticeably sharper than from the 18. To my ears at least. Of course, the 28" was just horribly unwieldy and didn't have enough increased velocity to justify the extra length and weight.
Will