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+--- Thread: Tactical Life posts that the military is changing to the 6.8 in SAW and M4 (/showthread.php?tid=17287)
Tactical Life posts that the military is changing to the 6.8 in SAW and M4 - stanc - 09-05-2019
![[Image: NGSW_Rifle-1024x319.jpg]](https://gastatic.com/digest/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/NGSW_Rifle-1024x319.jpg)
![[Image: NGSW_AR-1024x333.jpg]](https://gastatic.com/digest/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/NGSW_AR-1024x333.jpg)
The belt container for the LMG is rather small capacity. It looks like it holds maybe 30 rounds.
Tactical Life posts that the military is changing to the 6.8 in SAW and M4 - stanc - 09-07-2019
![[Image: image5.jpg]](https://forums.delphiforums.com/dir-docs/autogun/2CA6E9FA-0484-4424-88CE-CE2B7A34EFAC/image5.jpg)
http://soldiersystems.net/2019/09/06/us-army-selects-true-velocity-composite-cased-ammunition-next-generation-squad-weapon/
Tactical Life posts that the military is changing to the 6.8 in SAW and M4 - Double Naught Spy - 09-07-2019
Very interesting, Stan. However, the description of the cartridge largely reads like the advertisement for any other ammo, lots of fluff and not much substance. I wonder how much is actually real and what they are hiding, LOL.
Tactical Life posts that the military is changing to the 6.8 in SAW and M4 - stanc - 09-07-2019
Double Naught Spy Wrote:Very interesting, Stan. However, the description of the cartridge largely reads like the advertisement for any other ammo, lots of fluff and not much substance.I agree. And the first sentence of the article makes it sound like the TV round was selected for adoption. I linked to it just to properly credit the source of the photo.
Double Naught Spy Wrote:I wonder how much is actually real and what they are hiding, LOL.Ha! And some people think that I'm cynical...
Tactical Life posts that the military is changing to the 6.8 in SAW and M4 - stanc - 09-11-2019
"Available in 50, 100, or 200 round capacity..." http://soldiersystems.net/2019/09/10/dsei-19-sig-next-gen-automatic-rifle-ammo-soft-bag/
![[Image: img_5424.jpg]](http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/img_5424.jpg)
![[Image: img_5426.jpg]](http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/img_5426.jpg)
Tactical Life posts that the military is changing to the 6.8 in SAW and M4 - stanc - 09-12-2019
NGSW-R
![[Image: IMG_20190912_081209.jpg]](https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/IMG_20190912_081209.jpg)
NGSW-AR (Note that Textron, like SIG Sauer, has opted to make a belt-fed machine gun, instead of a mag-fed automatic rifle.)
![[Image: IMG_20190912_081247.jpg]](https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/IMG_20190912_081247.jpg)
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/09/12/first-photo-of-textrons-ngsw-prototypes/
Tactical Life posts that the military is changing to the 6.8 in SAW and M4 - hill37 - 09-12-2019
The Sig ammo looks a whole lot like the Shell Shock Tech 9mm case. Shell Shock seems to have dropped it's rifle case development.
Tactical Life posts that the military is changing to the 6.8 in SAW and M4 - Fess - 09-12-2019
I am surprised that none of the contenders used steel for the upper section of their cartridges. It is possible that Sig did work with Shell Shock behind the scenes, but one of the Shell Shocks important marketing points is the increased capacity from its steel walls. I read somewhere that the reason that we have not heard from Shell Shock for a while is that they decided to move their plant to another location and it has taken a while to get backup and running. It was poor timing if that is what caused them to miss out on this contract.
This TFB article has more pics:https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/09/12/tfb-first-look-sig-sauers-next-generation-squad-weapons/
Tactical Life posts that the military is changing to the 6.8 in SAW and M4 - LRRPF52 - 09-13-2019
Double Naught Spy Wrote:Very interesting, Stan. However, the description of the cartridge largely reads like the advertisement for any other ammo, lots of fluff and not much substance. I wonder how much is actually real and what they are hiding, LOL.
It's all real. Some of the earlier attempts at hybrid metallic/polymer cases were abject failures resulting in case head separations, side wall fractures, dislodged projectiles, and blown primers.
There are at least 3 different approaches going on with 6.8 NGSW as mentioned in the down-select.
The new True Velocity cartridge configuration basically fits the form factor of 7.62 NATO, with with substantially reduced weight and substantially-increased working pressure pushing a .277" EPR. The bullets they're showing may or may not be the specified projectile that the Army "nailed down". The Army has changed the projectile weight and shape at least 3 times already.
![[Image: True-Velocity-6.8mm-Composite-Cased-Gene...60x330.jpg]](https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/True-Velocity-6.8mm-Composite-Cased-General-Dynsmics-NGSW-1-660x330.jpg)
Tactical Life posts that the military is changing to the 6.8 in SAW and M4 - LRRPF52 - 09-14-2019
Looks like they might have driving bands on the projectiles, which will reduce barrel friction and heat.
If someone could scale the image with the bands = .277", you should be able to get a good estimate of COL and case width at the base and shoulder to see if it will fit existing 7.62 NATO mags.
Tactical Life posts that the military is changing to the 6.8 in SAW and M4 - grayfox - 09-14-2019
LRRPF52 Wrote:Looks like they might have driving bands on the projectiles, which will reduce barrel friction and heat.
If someone could scale the image with the bands = .277", you should be able to get a good estimate of COL and case width at the base and shoulder to see if it will fit existing 7.62 NATO mags.
With my graphics program I get an overall length of ~2.799". There is a slight angular offset as you can see by the base, but the closest I can figure it's this. Casing width estimates at 0.4665" about midway up the casing.
edit: the casing measures pretty much straight wall.
Tactical Life posts that the military is changing to the 6.8 in SAW and M4 - BluntForceTrauma - 09-15-2019
It's designed to fit within standard 7.62x51 COAL, so ~2.8 sounds right.
I think the whole concept is fundamentally flawed in terms of "stowed kills" — or whatever metric they're using these days. The fact that they keep changing metrics just tells me they don't know what they want. Not quite gonna say they don't know what they're doing, but I might....
If you're willing to go to high-pressure cartridges like the new 6.8x51, then do a 40mm Grendel case in 6.5mm or .25 cal. with a 2.300 COAL and set the MAP to 65,000 psi with a new bolt head. AP capability is a matter of hardened steel or tungsten projectiles with a hybrid VLD shape and weighing about 100 grains. Slightly longer case capacity and higher pressure should address velocity concerns.
Tactical Life posts that the military is changing to the 6.8 in SAW and M4 - stanc - 09-15-2019
BluntForceTrauma Wrote:I think the whole concept is fundamentally flawed in terms of "stowed kills" ? or whatever metric they're using these days. The fact that they keep changing metrics just tells me they don't know what they want.The fact that they are adapting to a change in the perceived threat of possible future conflicts -- instead of just preparing to fight the last war -- demonstrates admirable mental flexibility to me.
Tactical Life posts that the military is changing to the 6.8 in SAW and M4 - JASmith - 09-16-2019
stanc Wrote:The fact that they are adapting to a change in the perceived threat of possible future conflicts -- instead of just preparing to fight the last war -- demonstrates admirable mental flexibility to me.
Look back to observations by LRRPF52 on this topic. This is clearly not a 5.56 replacement, but is more likely a candidat to to eventually replace the 7.62 NATO.
Tactical Life posts that the military is changing to the 6.8 in SAW and M4 - stanc - 09-16-2019
JASmith Wrote:Look back to observations by LRRPF52 on this topic. This is clearly not a 5.56 replacement, but is more likely a candidat to to eventually replace the 7.62 NATO.You are clearly mistaken. NGSW = Next Generation SQUAD Weapon.
The 6.8mm NGSW-R and NGSW-AR are meant to replace the 5.56mm M4 carbine and M249 machine gun in the infantry rifle squad.
Tactical Life posts that the military is changing to the 6.8 in SAW and M4 - JASmith - 09-16-2019
Wrong! That will be used by, at most, one member of the squad, with the rest carrying the now classic 5.56.
It will have the same, but more effective, role as the current SAW.
Tactical Life posts that the military is changing to the 6.8 in SAW and M4 - Fess - 09-16-2019
From https://defence-blog.com/army/u-s-army-will-receive-100k-ngsw-weapons-systems-for-replacing-m4-and-m249.html
"Chief of Staff of the Army Gen. Mark A. Milley on 10 April said that somewhere in the range of 100,000 of NGSW will initially be purchased for Soldiers who engage in close-quarters combat.
According to the U.S. Army Contracting Command officials, the new weapons will include the Next Generation Squad Weapon-Rifle (NGSW-R) and the Next Generation Squad Weapon-Automatic Rifle (NGSW-AR).
The NGSW-R is the planned replacement for the M4/M4A1 Carbine and the NGSW-AR is the planned replacement for the M249 Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW) in the Automatic Rifleman Role in the Close Combat Force.""
That is the pie-in-the-sky plan, but no plan survives first contact with reality. The original idea also assumed that both the weapons and ammo would be lighter and lower recoil than what we have now. I think it likely that the initial deployment will be the SAW replacement and/or DMR replacement.
Tactical Life posts that the military is changing to the 6.8 in SAW and M4 - stanc - 09-16-2019
JASmith Wrote:Wrong! That will be used by, at most, one member of the squad, with the rest carrying the now classic 5.56.
US Army Wrote:The NGSW-AR will replace the M-249 Squad Automatic Weapon, or SAW, in the Automatic Rifleman Role, and the NGSW-R will replace the M4/M4A1 Carbine in Brigade Combat Teams.Hmm. Which has more credibility: Joe Smith, or the United States Army?
https://www.army.mil/article/211454/soldier_lethality_cross_functional_team_bringing_next_generation_technologies_to_soldiers
Tactical Life posts that the military is changing to the 6.8 in SAW and M4 - JASmith - 09-16-2019
That quote confirms my statement in principle.
We really don’t know how it will play out. Endless picking over precise terms only begets useless arguments.
To quote an overused term “I’ll believe it when I see it.”
Tactical Life posts that the military is changing to the 6.8 in SAW and M4 - Fess - 09-16-2019
The medium term plan is to match the NGSW weapons with a fire control that identifies the target, compensates for windage and elevation, and even calculates the lead for moving targets. In some plans, the fire control will actuate an electro-mechanical trigger. In other plans, the weapon will be in a "steerable chassis" that can make last-second aiming corrections.
The weapons will have the ability to communicate with each other, so I guess that they will have a robotic version of "Hey y'all, watch this!" I find this worrisome since that is last phrase uttered by many a good ol' boy. Well, that and "Hold my beer."