+- 6.5 Grendel Forum (https://65grendel.com)
+-- Forum: 6.5 GRENDEL DISCUSSION FORUMS (https://65grendel.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=3)
+--- Forum: 6.5 Grendel Military & Law Enforcement (https://65grendel.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=13)
+--- Thread: Optimized Caliber (/showthread.php?tid=691)
Optimized Caliber - LRRPF52 - 06-14-2012
Trying to replace 5.56 and 7.62 at the same time is probably too much of an adjustment for the entire NATO system to digest, and since there are more 5.56 NATO individual service weapons, therein lies the logistical quagmire. Using the Upgraded SAW and Mk48 platforms as transitional frames for the Grendel upgrade, while developing the DMR system, and replacing M240's with the .338 MMG is what I'm talking about.
7.62 NATO can be used as is needed while the new caliber is ramped up and absorbed into the various units.
They can also start looking at the .338 MMG to replace 7.62 and .50 BMG belt-fed weapons on vehicles & aircraft, since there would be a net weight-savings, with performance increase.
We also don't have to be held to the manner in which things have been done in the past, as so many processes have undergone radical changes in just the last 15 years, regarding military procurement, R&D, solicitations, end-user involvement in designs, and unit purchasing. It has largely been driven by the Special Operations community, which has a can-do attitude and posture, in contrast to the conventional military's "No, that violates this and that stack of regulations, blah blah blah..."
As SOCOM has shifted to the dominant, lead organization, rather than a supporting community for conventional forces, the tides of military planning and logistics have changed significantly. If you look at Desert Storm, SOF units were treated marginally. Those days are gone, and National Command Authority looks heavily on SOF units to bear the main effort of the majority of operations we currently are engaged in, not only in USCENTCOM, but USPACOM, USOUTHCOM, USAFRICOM, and USEUCOM.
As we ramp up in USPACOM to deter China from getting aggressive with Taiwan, the Philippines, friend-up to India, and maintain vigilance against North Korea, the conventional nature of force structure will pull the force back in the direction planners should have covered down on more, and trans-Pacific logistics will be a major issue in hauling material thousands of miles away.
They're re-opening Pubic Bay and Clark AFB in the Philippines, and China is not happy about that move, since some little commie witch state media anchor just declared that "It's an indisputable fact that the Philippines is part of soveriegn China, and always has been."
[video=youtube;KiudNjxTdg4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiudNjxTdg4[/video]
The Grendel LMG & .338 MMG support the lip service we've been hearing about a lighter, leaner, more efficient force for a long time, with actual platforms to execute it.
Optimized Caliber - Variable - 06-14-2012
LRRPF52 Wrote:They're re-opening Pubic Bay and Clark AFB in the Philippines, and China is not happy about that move, since some little commie witch state media anchor just declared that "It's an indisputable fact that the Philippines is part of soveriegn China, and always has been."
Sorry off topic: Holy smokes! Reopen Clark!!! OMGWTFBBQ!!! Why now??? After I'm married and too damn old to go back there??? I had more fun at Clark air base than I've ever had, or likely ever will have again in my entire life!!! I just can't begin to explain the level of awesome that resided at that place!!!
HaaaHaaahahahahahaha!!! I just searched the phrase "reopen clark air base" and this old article popped up:http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1986-03-31/news/0210170032_1_bar-girls-subic-bay-pickets Oh but to have the women fight over us again!!!!!
Ok, maniacal rant in memory of lost youth over, back on topic. Sorry. Here is a more appropriate link about reopening bases in the Phillipines:http://thehill.com/blogs/defcon-hill/operations/231257-philippines-re-opens-military-bases-to-us-forces-
Optimized Caliber - JASmith - 06-14-2012
I hear you! Now, if they start reopening Thai bases, I would really be in trouble!!
Optimized Caliber - stanc - 06-14-2012
LRRPF52 Wrote:Trying to replace 5.56 and 7.62 at the same time is probably too much of an adjustment for the entire NATO system to digest...I'm not talking about replacing both 5.56 and 7.62 in the inventory, just 5.56.
Quote:...and since there are more 5.56 NATO individual service weapons, therein lies the logistical quagmire.What quagmire? They managed to transition from the .30 M1 rifle to 7.62 M14, and from there to 5.56 M16, at a time when the armed forces were a lot bigger than now, so I think a switch could be handled now.
Quote:Using the Upgraded SAW and Mk48 platforms as transitional frames for the Grendel upgrade, while developing the DMR system, and replacing M240's with the .338 MMG is what I'm talking about.Yes, I understood that. AFAIK, the .338 MMG is only a GD proposal, not something the Army is actively seeking to replace the M240.
Quote:The Grendel LMG & .338 MMG support the lip service we've been hearing about a lighter, leaner, more efficient force for a long time, with actual platforms to execute it.That's what all of the alternative cartridges aim to do. But, none have yet demonstrated they can achieve it.
Optimized Caliber - stanc - 06-15-2012
A METHODOLOGY FOR SELECTING SMALL-ARMS ROUNDS TO MEET MILITARY REQUIREMENTS
http://www.cna.org/sites/default/files/research/0203070000.pdf
Optimized Caliber - woohoo - 06-16-2012
Stan,
Just thought I would let you know Cris Murray is going to get his chance with the army and the 7x46 very soon.
He has AR10 carbines for testing now and some of the parts for the GPMG that he wants to replace the M240 with.
Optimized Caliber - BluntForceTrauma - 06-16-2012
Stan, thanks for the Methodology PDF. Very interesting reading. To quote page 14: "Of the five basic calibers only the .264 caliber provides common round solutions."
Also interesting to see his strong emphasis on 50,000 psi being ideal for a military cartridge.
John
Optimized Caliber - stanc - 06-16-2012
woohoo Wrote:Stan,Heh, heh. Apparently you read the following post on 68forums:
Just thought I would let you know Cris Murray is going to get his chance with the army and the 7x46 very soon.
He has AR10 carbines for testing now and some of the parts for the GPMG that he wants to replace the M240 with.
http://68forums.com/forums/showthread.php?29635-7x46-UIAC-gets-a-chance&p=319057&viewfull=1#post319057
The article Harrison linked to is from April 2010 and says nothing about "a chance with the Army."
Last I heard from Cris Murray, he had converted an MG42 to 7x46 UIAC.
Optimized Caliber - stanc - 06-16-2012
HANKA Wrote:Stan, thanks for the Methodology PDF. Very interesting reading. To quote page 14: "Of the five basic calibers only the .264 caliber provides common round solutions."Yes, I knew you'd like that bit.
Optimized Caliber - woohoo - 06-17-2012
stanc Wrote:Heh, heh. Apparently you read the following post on 68forums:You mean they didn't send you a memo?
http://68forums.com/forums/showthread.php?29635-7x46-UIAC-gets-a-chance&p=319057&viewfull=1#post319057
The article Harrison linked to is from April 2010 and says nothing about "a chance with the Army."
Last I heard from Cris Murray, he had converted an MG42 to 7x46 UIAC.
He has AR10s in 7x46, he was working on a MG42 and is working on his GPMG design.
http://68forums.com/forums/showthread.php?28608-Beefy!!&highlight=beefy
Optimized Caliber - stanc - 06-17-2012
woohoo Wrote:You mean they didn't send you a memo?Nah. I'm kept in the dark. I think I may be a mushroom.
Quote:He has AR10s in 7x46, he was working on a MG42 and is working on his GPMG design.Hey, thanks for that link. Interesting developments.
http://68forums.com/forums/showthread.php?28608-Beefy!!&highlight=beefy
Optimized Caliber - stanc - 09-01-2012
"...basically an extended Grendel case firing a 123 grain projectile."
http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages?msg=5242.142
Anybody have more info on this round, reportedly developed by the US Army Marksmanship Unit as their idea of a future infantry cartridge?
Optimized Caliber - LRRPF52 - 09-01-2012
I'll be looking around for info on this as well. I'm not convinced that you really need a longer case, since we only need to load the COAL longer, with plenty of engagement surface in the Grendel case for the vast array of long projectiles, to have an ideal shoulder-neck junction placement of the projectile base, while allowing more powder without compression. A COAL of 2.400" would be nice, but we really need to know what projectiles we're dealing with and the expectations of those projectiles before determining the case dimensions.
The other thing I like about the Grendel from a long-term military logistics standpoint is that barrels don't burn out like 5.56 and 7.62 NATO. There is considerably longer throat and barrel life, even with the civvy-grade steels being used. Now imagine a hammer-forged, chrome-lined 4150 CMV barrel in military guns. LMG's could potentially be rated for longer cyclic, rapid, and sustained-fire round counts between barrel changes, and assault rifles would have longer-lasting barrels.
This is a very appealing combination for countries who are facing hard economic times, in addition to increasingly belligerent external threats within their region, like Eastern European nations.
Optimized Caliber - Tony Williams - 09-02-2012
I've been working on my web article on the case for a new general-purpose military rifle/MG cartridge, and have thoroughly revamped it: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/The%20Next%20Generation.htm
Optimized Caliber - BluntForceTrauma - 09-02-2012
Thanks, Tony, it's always good to read your thorough analyses. Your articles have been very influential in my thinking.
Optimized Caliber - LRRPF52 - 09-04-2012
I just ran a series of data on how an Infantry Rifle Squad fare's with regards to combat endurance and follow-on mission capability after a chance contact while patrolling in the vicinity of a village.
With the successful execution of Battle Drill 1.a (Squad Attack), and NO casualties, the Infantry Squad is at 81% combat readiness after the quick pursuit of an enemy harassment team. 1-3 mags per soldier w/5.56 carbine were expended, with 100rds of linked per SAW, as well as 3x40mm HE per Grenadier.
They could endure one more engagement of this impact on their ammunition status, after which they would be 60% ready.
If I ran the sequence with Grendel, you need 2lbs more carrying capacity per Rifleman, Grenadier, Team Leader, and Squad Leader, for one less magazine. Not sure how much weight increase the SAW gunners would see.
8x30rd 5.56 NATO loaded aluminum mags = 8.47 lbs/240rds
7x30rd Polymer Grendel loaded mags = 10.5 lbs/210rds
You will never have the same bounds of fire & maneuver per weight with anything using projectiles that are significantly heavier than 5.56 NATO, so you have to convince Big Army that the increased strain on the logistics posture is really worth it in the long run, as re-supply operations slow down the pace of taking ground, while increasing combat arms AND combat support units, to include unit internal re-supply assets (Platoon Sergeant w/Medic, or 1SG w/driver, another Squad that could be combat-focused, etc.).
Optimized Caliber - Tony Williams - 09-04-2012
What does that tell us? That a Grendel round weighs more than a 5.56mm. Yep, knew that already. Using that assessment, the troops would have even more combat endurance if they were equipped with 5.7mm P90s or 4.6mm MP7s (all we need is a dinky little belt-fed MG to fire them).
Ammo weight is just one of the many considerations driving weapon and ammunition choices. By willingly carrying 7.62mm weapons instead of 5.56mm, the troops in Afghanistan have demonstrated that range and lethality can override weight in their priority order.
Optimized Caliber - LR1955 - 09-04-2012
Tony Williams Wrote:By willingly carrying 7.62mm weapons instead of 5.56mm, the troops in Afghanistan have demonstrated that range and lethality can override weight in their priority order.
Tony:
Joes tend to believe anything bigger must be better. Few if any have the skills to prove it. They see a bigger cartridge like a round of M-80 and think it is more effective than their round of 5.56.
What conventional forces have the option of carrying a 7.62 rifle over their issued M-4? I know there are EBRs and M-110's out there but they are not for general issue.
Please link us to a study that proves in quantitative (not qualitative) terms that hit and kill ratios in Afghanistan were significantly higher at distances from 300 to 600 meters because someone had a issued 7.62 carbine firing issued M-80 Ball as opposed to a 5.56 carbine firing issued M-855. And that the same study quantitatively proves that range overrides lethality and that range and lethality, range only, or lethality only override weight.
Just because someone carries a specific anything that is different from standard issue doesn't mean it is better.
LR1955
Optimized Caliber - LRRPF52 - 09-04-2012
Quote:Ammo weight is just one of the many considerations driving weapon and ammunition choices. By willingly carrying 7.62mm weapons instead of 5.56mm, the troops in Afghanistan have demonstrated that range and lethality can override weight in their priority order.
They are issued a small arms structure that is a mix of mostly 5.56 carbines, with very few 7.62 DMR's. Nobody that I know of is carrying 7.62 NATO universally across their small arms mix, although the Norwegians did earlier in the campaign with the AG-3 before they adopted the HK416.
By this, we know that US/UK and other professional armies are not only willing, but in fact are employing a 2-caliber small arms mix at the Squad-level, when it used to be 5.56 NATO universal for at least a US Infantry Squad with M16 family and the SAW.
I still think a universal caliber at the Squad-level is doable with the Grendel, but not necessary, and I would still want an assault rifle load, versus the LMG load, which takes us back to our cost-benefit analysis to 5.56 NATO/MRLMG Grendel structure.
You are absolutely right about factoring in the performance capability of the cartridge/weapon system in relation to weight, and do we favor in the direction of:
* lightweight, higher mobility, longer combat endurance....or
* more weight, less mobility, less combat endurance, but higher-power ammunition
The current 5.56 NATO service weapon/7.62 DMR mix satisfies both of those considerations, without significantly reducing the unit's ability to make contact, fight through the contact, and be prepared for 2 more contact sequences before needing a re-supply.
The Grendel would reduce the weight of the 7.62 DMR, while increasing mag capacity and combat endurance of the Squad, and still allow the DMR's to perform as rifleman-assaulters within close quarters.
Optimized Caliber - Tony Williams - 09-05-2012
When it comes to ammunition weight, I suspect that belt-fed MGs are more significant than rifles. I recall hearing a US Army presentation a couple of years ago about the introduction of the MK48 7.62mm LMG. At that time, the dismounted troops were carrying both 5.56mm M249 and 7.62mm M240. The Army expected the troops to leave the M240 back at the base and take the MK48 instead - but they found that it was the M249 which was being left behind in favour of a MK48 and M240 combination.
Basically, the troops were happy to rely on 5.56mm in the short ranges of Iraq, but when they got to the longer ranges in Afghanistan, they were delighted to get hold of 7.62mm MGs and rifles (even bolt-action rifles initially in the BA, for want of anything better). They found the 5.56mm weapons ineffective at longer ranges, while the 7.62mms did what they wanted. By far the most popular small arms in the BA sections are the 7.62mm GPMG and L129A1 Sharpshooter rifle. Even the BA's senior officers concerned with small arms regard the 5.56mm as having an effective range of only 300m (the emphasis being on effective - I am aware it can perform better than this on the target range).
You may say that this is all in the mind but I doubt that, on the basis of some of the first-hand reports I've heard. Even if it is, I wouldn't dismiss too quickly a factor which has such a powerful effect on combat morale.