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To Be an American - LRRPF52 - 01-26-2015
Guys, I just wanted to share something near and dear to me, shedding some light on perspective from some guys who spent their lives serving their Country. I never thought it would turn into a point of contention.
To Be an American - Klem - 01-26-2015
Whoa!
Sorry guys, I've been away. We went down to the foreshore to watch the fireworks. It's Australia Day (26th Jan), where we celebrate our nationalism, being of course the 'greatest nation in human history.' On this day we also celebrate our multiculturalism where they always show citizenship ceremonies with people of other ethnicities on telly. Seems this has heated up in the meantime with threats of censorship by someone who was emphasizing earlier in the thread how we are all entitled to our differences of opinion.
My point earlier about the role of Moderator is one of neutrality, that in my view transcends the indulgence of taking sides. Like a Judge in a courtroom or an umpire in a sporting match. You feel differently Bill as you obviously hold very dear your views on the current subject. It would be very difficult for Nukes, myself or any other forum member to believe that any action you take now is unbiased. In your shoes if I missed the enjoyment of participating I would have two avatars; one as a member and one as an impartial Moderator. I accept there is now temptation for you to admonish me for suggesting the subterfuge but the current situation is also less than perfect. You espouse your deep seated beliefs and then threaten to censor the next poster who disagrees...at least it seems that way to me.
As for the micro aspect of the latest discussion, the US shedding more lives on behalf of other countries with no expectation of anything in return except the gravesites managed by the ABMC.Surely an obviously educated person such as yourself can see the brain washed jingoism in that statement? "No WMD's here." "Ooop's, quick, lets change it to Operation Iraqi Freedom." Come on Bill. Surely you know such grandiose statements stir debate and that there is no quiet dignity in loud proclamations.
Here are some pictures I took in 2011 of Colleville Sur-Mer. It is a beautiful place and a sobering reminder of sacrifice. I recommend everyone makes the pilgrimage to be there at least once in their lives.
![[Image: IMGP1866.jpg]](http://s7.postimg.org/8w6px2v3f/IMGP1866.jpg)
![[Image: IMGP1869.jpg]](http://s12.postimg.org/rs6p277ml/IMGP1869.jpg)
![[Image: IMGP1883.jpg]](http://s2.postimg.org/dladc8yk9/IMGP1883.jpg)
To Be an American - Heywood - 01-27-2015
^^^
Did your eyes glaze over when walking amongst so much religious symbolism? Or did you RESPECTFULLY acknowledge that many people sacrificed and continue to sacrifice. Not in spite of, but because their beliefs?
To Be an American - Klem - 01-27-2015
Actually they did, but more so from the military symbolism and my own memories. Just as poignant is the German cemetery at LaCambe, a simple place where more than twice the number at Colleville Sur Mer are buried.
How about you, did your eyes glaze over?
To Be an American - Drift - 01-27-2015
Getting back to the point of the clip. For me, it brought back memories of one of the hardest things I have ever done. Getting out. For four long years I had served. Told what to say and when and who to say it to; what to do what to read, wear, eat drink stand and when to sleep. I had not driven a car, payed rent or changed a TV channel in 3 1/2 years. I had talked on the phone to my family for maybe 30 min total. I was only allowed to take my 30 days annual leave "while at sea". I was 'instutionalised". So getting out was being "free" again. Freedom is scary. Free means"free to starve". Free to fail on my own. Or free to do well and excel. I did well enough for myself. Got a good and liberal education, married and a family to be proud of. I own guns, vote and go to church. I am proud to have served, and now proud contribute to my family town state and country in other ways. That's what being an American is about.
To Be an American - JASmith - 01-27-2015
Klem Wrote:...How about you, did your eyes glaze over?...and your point?
Have you forgotten the sacrifices all too many Australian soldiers have made for defending the freedoms you have?
I do know the Aussies I supported in Vietnam were superb.
To Be an American - BluntForceTrauma - 01-27-2015
LRRPF52, thanks for posting. I share your bewilderment when something that was supposed to be inspirational caused unintentional offense to some. I wish those offended had simply smirked and moved on. If a technical topic is of no interest to me, for example, I glance at it and move on. I wish some had treated this the same.
I think Drift had it right that in that we have become a community of sorts and, believe it or not, sometimes we want to talk about something other than the 6.5 Grendel. We have no General Discussion area— purposefully, to avoid the membership dividing themselves into warring factions as so often happens — but we do allow a little latitude here and there with the understanding that we will soon get back to the OP's main topic. If we get too far into the weeds and just cannot seem to find our way back, we lock the thread. Not a perfect system, but it's worked so far.
Bwaites, thank you for your measured response. I think your handling was patient and fair.
Nukes, I've tried to explain that we allow some political discussion as a small concession, but that doesn't mean that it's rank hypocrisy that we suddenly don't allow a total free-for-all. I'm sorry that the approach is nuanced, but, again, we try to make it work. I will even allow that for long-time members we even give a little more latitude than might be considered strictly fair, but I hope you understand that they sort of "earn" that kind of thing.
Klem, I thank you for trying very hard to keep your responses civil though it's clear you very much disagree. I like to think we're quite tolerant here of civil debate, no matter the diverging opinions. I do, however, think it might have been better if you had just smiled with bemusement and let those crazy Americans have their little "moment" without feeling like you needed to walk up to them, tap them on the shoulder, and begin lecturing them. Jumping in as you did was just bad form, in my opinion, sort of like telling dirty jokes at a funeral to the widow. Not the biggest sin, just bad manners.
Carry on. My hope is that we won't need to lock this, but that all the men here can continue to respectfully contribute while exhibiting good manners.
To Be an American - Klem - 01-27-2015
BFT,
Point taken.
My apologies everyone. I didn't mean to offend. This is a measured forum and why I frequent it. Plenty of values here close to people's hearts which is terrific. Testimony to this is how it pretty much started with '52' raising veterans rights and it morphed into God and Country like a tsunami. I am as guilty as any for this happening.
OK, I am going to bow out gracefully and let the majority Americans here chat amongst themselves. We have our own problems with DVA (Department of Veteran Affairs) and similar post-service issues to contend with.
My suggestion you guys visit the American Cemetery at Colleville is genuine. It is impressive, and a testament to all the values it espouses.
To Be an American - stanc - 01-28-2015
Drift Wrote:Getting back to the point of the clip. For me, it brought back memories of one of the hardest things I have ever done. Getting out. For four long years I had served. Told what to say and when and who to say it to; what to do what to read, wear, eat drink stand and when to sleep. I had not driven a car, payed rent or changed a TV channel in 3 1/2 years. I had talked on the phone to my family for maybe 30 min total. I was only allowed to take my 30 days annual leave "while at sea". I was 'instutionalised". So getting out was being "free" again.I can't really relate to such experience. But then, I was in the Air Farce, where military life was actually little different than civilian life. The only noticeable difference was in being required to wear a uniform, versus clothing of my choice, and residing in a barracks versus my own apartment. And during my last six months a couple of buddies and I shared an apartment off base. We drove our own vehicles, bought our own food, watched whatever TV channels we wished. So, upon discharge from active duty, I had no traumatic change in lifestyle.
To Be an American - stanc - 01-28-2015
BluntForceTrauma Wrote:I think Drift had it right that in that we have become a community of sorts and, believe it or not, sometimes we want to talk about something other than the 6.5 Grendel. We have no General Discussion area -- purposefully, to avoid the membership dividing themselves into warring factions as so often happens...John, I see no cause for concern. I mean, there was a General Discussion area on the old forum, and things never got heated there...
To Be an American - Variable - 01-28-2015
stanc Wrote:But then, I was in the Air Farce, where military life was actually little different than civilian life for a lot of folks.
FIFY.
Just because you didn't, doesn't cover everyone. Some of us ate plenty of dirt, snow, bugs, and sand thank you. We weren't all 9-5ers either. While I've stayed in some nice hotels, I also crapped in holes, slept in (different) holes and bunkers aplenty.:p:p:p
To Be an American - jurassic - 01-28-2015
stanc Wrote:I can't really relate to such experience. But then, I was in the Air Farce, where military life was actually little different than civilian life. The only noticeable difference was in being required to wear a uniform, versus clothing of my choice, and residing in a barracks versus my own apartment. And during my last six months a couple of buddies and I shared an apartment off base. We drove our own vehicles, bought our own food, watched whatever TV channels we wished. So, upon discharge from active duty, I had no traumatic change in lifestyle.
This was pretty much describes my hitch. The most traumatic experience I had in the AF was getting woke up around 3:30 am for deployment exercises and living in OKC.
To Be an American - stanc - 01-28-2015
cory Wrote:...Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness... It's God given...Please cite substantiation for that claim. According to the Bible, God is a ruthless tyrant who engaged in mass murder and genocide, slaughtering untold numbers of defenseless men, women, children, and babies. As best I can tell, God has repeatedly shown complete disregard for human life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.
To Be an American - montana - 01-28-2015
stanc Wrote:Please cite substantiation for that claim. According to the Bible, God is a ruthless tyrant who engaged in mass murder and genocide, slaughtering untold numbers of defenseless men, women, children, and babies. As best I can tell, God has repeatedly shown complete disregard for human life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.
Actually according to Christian beliefs or the ones I have read Satan is the ruler of the world until Christ returns and cast him into death for all eternity. I am not a theologian nor do I care to be one. Nor do I care to get into an argument over it. Discussing politics and religion can be asking for trouble but being appreciative of any freedom is a good thing and sometimes a person doesn't understand this until it is lost. Thank god we live in a country where discussing these topics wont lead to torture and death but only hurt feelings, some snide remarks and ostracism. I don't worship any government institution including the military but I do thank God for the good people who serve and put their butt on the line when they are needed to. I just wish the leaders of this country had the same moral fiber. Yes, stanc is keeping us honest again.
To Be an American - cory - 01-28-2015
stanc Wrote:Please cite substantiation for that claim. According to the Bible, God is a ruthless tyrant who engaged in mass murder and genocide, slaughtering untold numbers of defenseless men, women, children, and babies. As best I can tell, God has repeatedly shown complete disregard for human life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.
Alright I'll bite, if you fill like reading.
IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.......
To Be an American - stanc - 01-28-2015
cory Wrote:Alright I'll bite, if you fill like reading.Apparently you did not understand the question.
IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America...
I wasn't asking for the source of the quote, which I'm well aware is the Declaration of Independence.
What I wish to know is the basis for the claim that life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are "God given" rights.
That notion does not correlate with the great disregard for such "rights" shown by God in a number of Biblical stories.
To Be an American - JASmith - 01-28-2015
Guys, we are skirting the edge of acceptable discussion on this forum.
Having acknowledged that, I add this tidbit:
[INDENT]Let's not confuse Old Testament oral histories with New Testament teaching.
The important thing is that our Founding Fathers believed the rights to be God-Given. I see no reason to refute that, and it is certainly consistent with the spirit of Christianity.[/INDENT]
To Be an American - stanc - 01-28-2015
montana Wrote:Actually according to Christian beliefs or the ones I have read Satan is the ruler of the world until Christ returns...Yes, I've read that. And while it could account for the "evil" seen in the world, it does not address my question.
I was referring to actions that the Bible says were done by God himself, or at his direction.
For example, the annihilation of the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah, reportedly because they were exercising their liberty and pursuit of happiness.
Or the most egregious case, the intentional drowning of virtually all humans on Earth, in an effort at genocide not seen since.
Quote:Yes, stanc is keeping us honest again.Hey, it's a rough job, but somebody's gotta do it.
P.S. My personal opinion is that the concept of "rights" is a fallacy. The only rights that people actually have are those that they have the power to enforce. The rights that we enjoy currently resulted primarily from the use of force by mortal men, not by any decree from God.
And those "rights" have not remained constant over time, which they logically should be if they truly were ordained by God. For instance, prior to 1934 people had unrestricted access to machine guns, silencers, etc, but today government approval is required for legal ownership.
People today -- or I guess I really should say white adult males
-- are less free than they were 50 years ago, just as those in 1965 were less free than their predecessors in 1915, who were in turn less free than white men of 1865, and so on. The continuing decline in individual liberty seems inevitable and unavoidable.
To Be an American - stanc - 01-28-2015
JASmith Wrote:Let's not confuse Old Testament oral histories with New Testament teaching.Are you saying the Old Testament stories are untrue?
Quote:The important thing is that our Founding Fathers believed the rights to be God-Given. I see no reason to refute that...Well, I question that they truly believed it. After all, the Declaration of Independence was drafted by a slave owner.
However, the issue isn't whether or not they believed it. The question is, can anyone cite the basis for the claim of "God given" rights? Does it specifically say so anywhere in the Bible?
To Be an American - bwaites - 01-28-2015
Actually, this post has drifted so far as to be untenable. Simply stating beliefs is one thing, haveing to debate the reality of those beliefs is completely another. Christianity, indeed all belief if God, any God, requires faith.
Questioning faith is the same as asking someone to explain the taste of salt. If you have no faith, then it is impossible to understand it, just as explaining the taste of salt would be to someone who had never tasted it would be impossible.
Stan, just to assuage your thoughts, the slave owners who wrote the Constitution all had severe questions regarding the validity of being slave owners and stating what they did there. Being men, they could not always find it in themselves to do what was right. There is no doubt that they believed in God, but like all men, they had weaknesses. On top of that, many had been taught that slavery was one of two things....A master race overseeing a lesser or humans overseeing a lesser species. Either one, in retrospect, is abominable, but there are lots of more recent examples of people believing the same. Japan in WWII, (and to some extent even now), Germany, Russian beliefs about the Poles, Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians, etc. The tribal beliefs in Africa. The Afrikaners in South Africa, the immigrants vs mestizos in Mexico, the Portuguese descendents vs the blacks in Brazil, and many more.