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+--- Thread: 6.5 Grendel II ~vs~ regular grendel.....? (/showthread.php?tid=8718)
6.5 Grendel II ~vs~ regular grendel.....? - NugginFutz - 12-14-2014
am4966 Wrote:If I was going to buy a barrel and money is a concern I'd do 2 things. 1. Contact Mark at Precision Firearms to see if they have a lower end barrel bolt it'll be Saami 2. Buy a barrel from Black Hole Weaponry for one of the .264lbc barrel with a type 2 bolt barrels $250.00 range and it'll shoot the 123 grain stuff great probably others too I'm not sure about the heavies.
Both good choices. As far as the heavier bullets and the BHW barrels go, I know they're shooting 140 grain pills well, but I don't know about anything heavier.
If $$ are your limiting factor, you can get a decent barrel for $250 - 300. If you're looking for a "lights out" shooter, you're not squealing about the money - not realistically, anyway.
Grunt4Life Wrote:I don't know. Is the stance of the forum that the GII is junk? I understand that it's not SAAMI spec and it won't shoot all bullets as well as the Grendel chamber. Is it a suitable barrel that a recreational shooter can plink with and hunt?
I don't think the board has a formal stance on the quality of the GII. Most of that sentiment is directed at a batch of Grendel barrels (not GII) which were short throated and, depending on who tells it, were a result of worn reamers, ammunition changes in the industry, or just plain poor QC.
As with any caliber or chamber type, some are entry level barrels, and they are inexpensive for a reason. The only barrels marketed as "Grendel II" are from Satern / Liberty. If I understand correctly, Satern is turning out cut rifled barrels, and Liberty is mass producing the button rifled barrel. The Liberty barrels are clearly the cheaper of the two.
I agree with JASmith, in that the different variations all shoot most bullets well enough to render most differences meaningless to the average shooter or plinker. Barring manufacturing issues, which can and do occur, these should be safe to shoot.
6.5 Grendel II ~vs~ regular grendel.....? - LR1955 - 12-15-2014
BjornF16 Wrote:^^^^ THIS ^^^^^ I didn't really care until the brouhaha over GII and the crazy claims about velocity, etc. Once SAAMI was official and AA relinquished control of "Grendel", I believe there was an increase in "issues", some of them safety related; some reliability. (This validates AA's approach of closely controlling the spec and reamers).
Of course I would buy the 264LBC directly from Les Baer. I would not, however, buy it from some low budget operation or a company who has demonstrated QC issues or lack of honesty about their previous product.
(But before I would buy the 264LBC from Les Baer, I would buy a true Grendel from a reputable manufacturer like Precision Firearms).
Exactly!
Which is why I always recommend someone get a very high quality barrel made by a reputable manufacturer.
As for guys getting suckered by some BS about high velocity due to short throating, guess they learned their lesson the hard way.
If anyone had come to the forum saying that they were to buy a barrel deliberately short throated because the manufacturer claimed it would produce much higher velocities, we could have tried to talk them out of it or at least have explained what they are getting into.
By itself, short throating isn't that dangerous if a guy understands handloading. Remember that a Palma Chamber is 'short throated' in .308 terms.
I can see a Grendel short throated if all a guy wanted to shoot were some 85 grain bullets and the throat was still cut with some leade for those short bullets. Or if he understood how to handload properly for such a condition.
You can go too short which is apparently what happened somewhere along the line. I recall more than one guy on the forum who had short throated barrels they got on uppers bought from AA. It happens periodically. It happened to me but not a Grendel and the company was highly respected for barrels. It happens sometimes and will happen more often if you have no clue who made your barrel.
It took us months to find out who made the AR Stoner barrel because the company making them didn't want to reveal their name. Same with 'Liberty' barrels. I can't comprehend someone buying a barrel without knowing who made it! Hell, at least Shaw admitted they made the barrels that were mostly used by Alexander when he kicked this thing off. And Shaw was proud of their product which I respect greatly. But I won't buy a Shaw, either.
So, I will let this one die unless I smell Kool Aid on someones post.
6.5 Grendel II ~vs~ regular grendel.....? - DeadDownRange - 12-15-2014
Ok, so first post and i know I'm going to catch some heat over this. But i had a little chit chat on the phone with a SAAMI board member over this and what you guys keep referring to as a "wildcat" Grendel is in fact SAAMI. The Grendel II is in SAAMI spec. The only difference is the throat and , pardon my french, but SAAMI doesnt give a rats ass about the throat. If the chamber takes a SAAMI go gage, as the GII does, its SAAMI. The throat is on the print, but its not a SAAMI callout. A callout being a measurement required to make headspace, which the throat is not.
not trying to cause issues, just clearing up something that needed to be cleared up.
DDR
6.5 Grendel II ~vs~ regular grendel.....? - jurassic - 12-15-2014
Thanks for the update, I don't remember reading that bit of information before.
6.5 Grendel II ~vs~ regular grendel.....? - cory - 12-15-2014
DeadDownRange Wrote:Ok, so first post and i know I'm going to catch some heat over this. But i had a little chit chat on the phone with a SAAMI board member over this and what you guys keep referring to as a "wildcat" Grendel is in fact SAAMI. The Grendel II is in SAAMI spec. The only difference is the throat and , pardon my french, but SAAMI doesnt give a rats ass about the throat. If the chamber takes a SAAMI go gage, as the GII does, its SAAMI. The throat is on the print, but its not a SAAMI callout. A callout being a measurement required to make headspace, which the throat is not.
not trying to cause issues, just clearing up something that needed to be cleared up.
DDR
Ted or XCR??? Either way take your crap elsewhere. We've been down this road before. This was wrong then and is wrong now.
6.5 Grendel II ~vs~ regular grendel.....? - GSPHunter - 12-15-2014
Hi DDR, if SAAMI doesn't care about the throat, why is it shown in the chamber drawing? http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Rifle/6_5%20Grendel.pdf
6.5 Grendel II ~vs~ regular grendel.....? - montana - 12-15-2014
The issue has always been the chamber B.A. created. He created the Grendel which has a compound throat, "period". Less bear made his rifles with a different throat and called it the 264 Less Bear. The 223 has a different throat compared to the 5.56 and 223 wylde. Shooting a 5.56 ammo in 223 chamber is not the best idea so there can be consequences for not understanding the differences in throates. This is why the confusion and discussion on this forum. The problem has been the confusion created by using the Grendel name which has caused confusion and created some animosity. There have been some former members who have taken this subject to a new limit of personal vendettas. Whether their opinions were spot on or not was lost with their condescending attitudes which doesn't help any one.
6.5 Grendel II ~vs~ regular grendel.....? - BluntForceTrauma - 12-15-2014
I am watching this thread and DDR's contributions.
It is my official position that if a chamber that fires factory 6.5 Grendel ammunition does NOT adhere to BOTH the case AND throat specifications of the SAAMI drawing, it is a variant — which is perfectly fine in and of itself — but it should in NO way be marketed with the word "Grendel" in it.
Satern/Liberty should market their variant throat as something like 6.5 Satern or .264 Liberty, or such, but should not confuse the market with the argument about whether a throat specification is essential to — or an optional subset of — any given SAAMI specification.
I don't personally know the technical facts on the matter, so I have an open mind. I'm willing to have a major SAAMI member tell us, on the record, that they feel free to ignore — or not — the throat dimensions of any given SAAMI drawing for any given cartridge. I'm willing to have someone show us documentation that the SAAMI "rules" themselves consider throating dimensions optional. It would seem to me to be a crucial component of whether a chambering is safe or not, so I'd be surprised if they leave it to the manufacturer's discretion. But, hey, let's see documentation instead of "my secret source whispered this to me and winked. . . ."
At any rate, I consider attempts to market a "Grendel II" as acting out of petty vindictiveness and, in bad faith, trying to make trouble. Don't try and tell me it's at all comparable to the .223 Wylde, wherein someone is trying to offer a variant as a legitimate solution to a specific issue. (Also notice he didn't name it the .223 Remington II).
6.5 Grendel II ~vs~ regular grendel.....? - DeadDownRange - 12-15-2014
Cory, I'm new here. I dont know who you think I am, but I'm not them. It just seemed weird to me that a throat change designated the cartridge a wildcat. If you go back into 10 years of 308 Winchester production barrels I'm willing to bet that between Winchester, Ruger, Remington, and Savage there are all kinds of slight throat variations.
I really know nothing about the Grendel besides the little that is available on the internet. I do know a fair amount about barrels and chambers though.
GSP, its on the print as a reference, not a headspace callout. There is no throat on a SAAMI go/no-go gage. SAAMI isn't concerned with reloaders and to the best of my knowledge (which I may be incorrect and i apologize if that's the case), pretty much all the factory Grendel ammo fires fine in the AA and "GII" chambers.
Montana, the 264 LBC has a different throat dimension (LBC-.295" vs AA, GII- .300"). LB made a change to the dimensions themselves therefore changed the chamber as opposed to making it different.
Takes SAAMI spec ammo,
Takes SAAMI go gage,
Still not a Grendel?
I guess im just a bit confused about all the fuss over a different throat.
DDR
6.5 Grendel II ~vs~ regular grendel.....? - BluntForceTrauma - 12-15-2014
So, DDR, are the .223 Remington and the 5.56 NATO all one cartridge in the eyes of SAAMI? No distinctions to worry about since the throat doesn't matter to SAAMI?
6.5 Grendel II ~vs~ regular grendel.....? - PigOPs - 12-15-2014
DeadDownRange Wrote:Cory, I'm new here. I dont know who you think I am, but I'm not them. It just seemed weird to me that a throat change designated the cartridge a wildcat. If you go back into 10 years of 308 Winchester production barrels I'm willing to bet that between Winchester, Ruger, Remington, and Savage there are all kinds of slight throat variations.
I really know nothing about the Grendel besides the little that is available on the internet. I do know a fair amount about barrels and chambers though.
GSP, its on the print as a reference, not a headspace callout. There is no throat on a SAAMI go/no-go gage. SAAMI isn't concerned with reloaders and to the best of my knowledge (which I may be incorrect and i apologize if that's the case), pretty much all the factory Grendel ammo fires fine in the AA and "GII" chambers.
Montana, the 264 LBC has a different throat dimension (LBC-.295" vs AA, GII- .300"). LB made a change to the dimensions themselves therefore changed the chamber as opposed to making it different.
Takes SAAMI spec ammo,
Takes SAAMI go gage,
Still not a Grendel?
I guess im just a bit confused about all the fuss over a different throat.
DDR
I have to agree this does sound familiar... I too would like something official from SAAMI stating that the throat is not a part of the spec. In fact, if you or anyone else can produce written substantiated evidence that the throat is not a part of spec I bet everyone here would agree to drop this forever... I know I would. Guys???
6.5 Grendel II ~vs~ regular grendel.....? - BluntForceTrauma - 12-15-2014
I think it's pretty much "dropped," it's pretty much understood that any non-compound throat is a non-SAAMI variant and everybody's OK with that, until guys like DDR come in and stir it up and claim that you can still label your barrels 6.5 Grendel as long as the SAAMI go/no-go gauge fits. If I bought a 6.5 Grendel barrel and it did NOT have the SAAMI compound throat it'd be a deal-breaker unless I asked for a non-compound throat.
The compound throat is such a unique feature, that if one understands it in the context of the whole 6.5 Grendel program, it is a fundamental part of the cartridge's identity and specification. Any deviation from that is not wrong, but should be noted up front by the manufacturer. Is that too much to ask? You gonna sell .223 Wylde but call it .223 Remington?
To Satern's credit, I checked their Website today and they advertise both 6.5 Grendel and 6.5 Grendel II barrels, so I'd say they're halfway there. But I know why they use the label "Grendel II" and I think it's petty and far beneath them as good people and patriots. I did not see a FAQ on their Website explaining the distinction between 65G and 65GII and I think they owe at least that to their buyers. Is it too much to say, "This is how our chamber differs from SAAMI 6.5 Grendel and why"? If I was into .223, I'd want the Wylde chamber, so these things matter. I guess gun guys can be a little particular and persnickety. If I want a 1:8 twist, don't switch it to a 1:9 and tell me to shut up cuz I'll never know the difference. We had a well-known reamer-maker brag last year about pulling a stunt like that.
Anyway, bottom line: More guns, more ARs, in America is good. And more chamberings that fire 6.5 Grendel ammunition is even better. I just get annoyed when grown men act like children, but I guess I'm old enough to have long since stopped expecting people to be perfect.
6.5 Grendel II ~vs~ regular grendel.....? - BjornF16 - 12-15-2014
DeadDownRange Wrote:Cory, I'm new here. I dont know who you think I am, but I'm not them. It just seemed weird to me that a throat change designated the cartridge a wildcat. If you go back into 10 years of 308 Winchester production barrels I'm willing to bet that between Winchester, Ruger, Remington, and Savage there are all kinds of slight throat variations.
I really know nothing about the Grendel besides the little that is available on the internet. I do know a fair amount about barrels and chambers though.
GSP, its on the print as a reference, not a headspace callout. There is no throat on a SAAMI go/no-go gage. SAAMI isn't concerned with reloaders and to the best of my knowledge (which I may be incorrect and i apologize if that's the case), pretty much all the factory Grendel ammo fires fine in the AA and "GII" chambers.
Montana, the 264 LBC has a different throat dimension (LBC-.295" vs AA, GII- .300"). LB made a change to the dimensions themselves therefore changed the chamber as opposed to making it different.
Takes SAAMI spec ammo,
Takes SAAMI go gage,
Still not a Grendel?
I guess im just a bit confused about all the fuss over a different throat.
DDR
Well...I guess .260 Remington is a .308 SAAMI round...who'd have thunk it.
Wait! 25-06, 280 Rem are apparently 30-06 SAAMI as well. Wow! I would have never believed.
.243 WIN, 260 REM, 7mm-08, 338 Federal, and 358 WIN all use .308 WIN go/no go gauges. Who cares about the throat. Since they all take the same "go gauge" they are .308 WIN SAAMI.
see: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/638620/ptg-headspace-go-gage-243-winchester-260-remington-7mm-08-remington-308-winchester-338-federal-358-winchester?cm_vc=ProductFinding
Brilliant!
6.5 Grendel II ~vs~ regular grendel.....? - babaganoush - 12-15-2014
DeadDownRange Wrote:... I really know nothing about the Grendel besides the little that is available on the internet. I do know a fair amount about barrels and chambers though.
GSP, its on the print as a reference, not a headspace callout. There is no throat on a SAAMI go/no-go gage. SAAMI isn't concerned with reloaders and to the best of my knowledge (which I may be incorrect and i apologize if that's the case), pretty much all the factory Grendel ammo fires fine in the AA and "GII" chambers.
Montana, the 264 LBC has a different throat dimension (LBC-.295" vs AA, GII- .300"). LB made a change to the dimensions themselves therefore changed the chamber as opposed to making it different.
Takes SAAMI spec ammo,
Takes SAAMI go gage,
Still not a Grendel?
I guess im just a bit confused about all the fuss over a different throat.
DDR
Forgive me if I appear to be restating what some consider the obvious:
Registration of a drawing with SAAMI is, by definition, the codification of all dimensions and annotations included on said drawing. Essentially, everything on that drawing is both specification and reference. Optional items are identified as such on many drawings that I've viewed.
A Go/NoGo gauge is simply a tool to determine only the headspace of said chamber. It cannot be the definition of the chamber in it's entirety, as it is blind to differences in neck size as well as other dimensions of the throat and chamber. This is clearly seen when using the 6.5 Grendel GNG gauges in a 264 LBC, which is an identified variant with a smaller neck.
As far as having a chat with one of members of the SAAMI committee goes, words over the phone or over a drink are really nothing more than opinion until and unless they are rendered official by a formal document. As I alluded above, if a document is registered with an organization (any organization), and in the absence of any formal declaration of exception by the organization, the entire contents of that document become official unless specifically exempted within the document itself.
ETA: Thanks, BjornF16, for providing other more drastic examples of the GNG gauge conundrum.
6.5 Grendel II ~vs~ regular grendel.....? - DeadDownRange - 12-15-2014
BjornF16 Wrote:Well...I guess .260 Remington is a .308 SAAMI round...who'd have thunk it.
Wait! 25-06, 280 Rem are apparently 30-06 SAAMI as well. Wow! I would have never believed.
.243 WIN, 260 REM, 7mm-08, 338 Federal, and 358 WIN all use .308 WIN go/no go gauges. Who cares about the throat. Since they all take the same "go gauge" they are .308 WIN SAAMI.
see: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/638620/ptg-headspace-go-gage-243-winchester-260-remington-7mm-08-remington-308-winchester-338-federal-358-winchester?cm_vc=ProductFinding
Brilliant!
These are different calibers and have absolutely no relation to the topic at hand.
And so are you saying if i made a 6.5 Grendel reamer with a compound throat but ground the throat .015" deeper thats no long a "SAAMI Grendel" since it doesnt have the original throat?
On a side note i email SAAMI with the details of this discussion to see what they say and get the final answer on paper so this topic can be dropped once and for all and have everything set straight. I think we would all appreciate that.
DDR
6.5 Grendel II ~vs~ regular grendel.....? - Sniper338 - 12-15-2014
bluntforcetrauma Wrote:i am watching this thread and ddr's contributions.
It is my official position that if a chamber that fires factory 6.5 grendel ammunition does not adhere to both the case and throat specifications of the saami drawing, it is a variant — which is perfectly fine in and of itself — but it should in no way be marketed with the word "grendel" in it.
Satern/liberty should market their variant throat as something like 6.5 satern or .264 liberty, or such, but should not confuse the market
this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
6.5 Grendel II ~vs~ regular grendel.....? - Sniper338 - 12-15-2014
Thats lrobably the best post to sum it all up.... i agree 100%. It confuses the consumer market and thats the biggest problem with it all.
6.5 Grendel II ~vs~ regular grendel.....? - LR1955 - 12-16-2014
cory Wrote:Ted or XCR??? Either way take your crap elsewhere. We've been down this road before. This was wrong then and is wrong now.
Cory:
When you become a moderator you can tell someone to 'take their crap elsewhere'.
Hanka says this ought to end so I am ending it.
LR55