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PDW trunk gun quest - LRRPF52 - 08-05-2011
Yes, In an urban environment, you don't want to be launching projectiles through your intended target(s) and then off into innocents. 5.56 FMJ's and M855 usually sail right through vehicles, in my experience, even front-to-back. Maybe ballistic tips would be a good idea for a car gun, but you also have to think about windshield penetration, often after penetrating from within your windshield if you are nose-to-nose with another vehicle filled with imminent threats.
Whatever I'm shooting, I won't be relying on one round to do the trick, as the first round usually breaks the ice in a rapid string into my aiming point on the smallest point of the target being engaged. This is where I lean towards magazine capacity and controllability, so I can keep rounds within a 2-6" circle under rapid fire, depending on the distances. For me, 5.56 from a well-built AR fills the bill right now. I know of no other 5.56 carbine that can match the speed and controllability of an AR for these types of scenarios.
I would say the most important aspect of this discussion is training, not necessarily weapons selection. Due to the NFA laws, it is more difficult to obtain the properly-profiled SBR's appropriate for this type of work. I will also say that if you have to shoot from within your vehicle without ear pro in, you WILL suffer significant hearing loss. There will also be dangerous levels of glass particulate dust that is hazardous to breathe.
If you can't afford to participate in professional training events where shooting from within vehicles is conducted, you can practice from a simple arrangement of chairs on the range. Use barricades to simulate the dash, and imagine where passengers, windows and pillars will be, constraining your fields of fire. Then practice shooting from a seated position to your left and right, as if shooting from the driver's and passenger side windows. I also suggest incorporating those who you drive with frequently to participate in this training. You can also practice dry in your vehicle in the garage, with the garage door closed as to not spook any neighbors.
There are a lot of lessons to be learned from the FBI Miami Shootout when it comes to car guns, shooting from within vehicles, retention of eyeglasses, pistols falling on the floor in vehicle impact and getting lost, range habits gone horribly wrong in life-or-death shootings, mag or cylinder capacity, back-up guns, malf's, reloading under fire, shooting and moving, using cars as weapons, communication, and so forth. The SBR Mini-14 with folding stock and coupled 30rd mags proved to be the most formidable weapon in that encounter, especially in the hands of a better-trained fighter, regardless of the well-honed marksmanship skills of the FBI agents.
The use of vehicles as weapons by the FBI gave them a major advantage in the initial stage of the encounter, constraining Platt and Matix to a limited area of maneuver, after disabling their vehicle and trapping it between two other parked cars. Once Platt started firing effectively on the agents from within the car with the Mini-14, he turned the tables on them, even though they had totally surrounded him and Matix, who had been effectively disabled with a basal skull fracture from a +P+ .38 Special.
There are way more things to think about than gun play and vehicle handling/dynamic driving, while training for these encounters is restricted to extremely-small Government, LE, and Military circles. Learning to be aggressive while keeping a cool head is the basis to start from, when preparing for a scenario where a car gun will come into play. One of the first drills is to learn how to maneuver your vehicle out of the kill zone, often while driving in reverse with many sharp turns without hitting obstacles, as your passenger places rapid strings of fire effectively into the threats. There are only a handful of people in the world that train on these skill sets.
PDW trunk gun quest - bwaites - 08-05-2011
Anyone who thinks you won't need it here needs to read this and pay attention!
http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/126825018.html
PDW trunk gun quest - LRRPF52 - 08-05-2011
One of the biggest misconceptions about Law Enforcement is that their job is to protect you. It is not. It cannot be, given the basic limitations of physics. Their job is to protect the sense of societal order in municipalities, counties, States, and Nations. They are barely equipped to protect themselves in most cases, and most officers don't receive enough training to do even that.
When you are in the middle of a life-or-death scenario that usually comes up on people in a surprising fashion, 911 is minutes away, and response times to violent crimes reported as being perpetrated by multiple suspects don't exactly increase the response times. What person or persons want to rush to their own possible death, whether wearing a uniform or not...
Somewhere along the way, people have surrendered their personal responsibility to assert and defend their own lives and security to unseen, unqualified, absent entities that simply don't exist. The sooner you realize that YOU'RE IT, the more engaged you should become in maintaining a healthy personal protection posture.
PDW trunk gun quest - BjornF16 - 08-06-2011
Quote:
Due to the NFA laws, it is more difficult to obtain the properly-profiled SBR's appropriate for this type of work.
LR52 - If no restrictions, what would you suggest?
What is the possibility of getting both my wife and I registered on an SBR? I'd like her to have access, even when I'm not around.
PDW trunk gun quest - Variable - 08-06-2011
That would be best served by the SBR belonging to a "NFA Trust" that includes the two of you. That way you don't get snared by one of you being in possession of NFA that isn't registered to them..... It's a lengthy explanation (that I can't answer all of today--in a hurry) but you'll find info on the NFA related boards (subguns.com, silencertalk.com, etc.) HTH
ETA: Found a second chance to throw something in.LOL
Here: http://blog.princelaw.com/2009/1/12/gun-nfa-trust-frequently-asked-questions
Pop some popcorn and pull up a comfy chair before starting to learn how to untangle the delightful world of NFA regulation.
PDW trunk gun quest - LRRPF52 - 08-06-2011
Variable,
That's an interesting suggestion, as I imagine both people could be co-owners/trustees of the trust. Good idea.
Bjorn,
For reliability, an 11.5" or 12.5" AR is hard to beat with the short AR's, as long as the barrel is made by a reputable manufacturer with the know-how on gas port diameter. Things start to get sketchy from there as you get into the 10" barrels, but some apparently are reliable with the right gas ports, gas system and recoiling parts balance, and ammunition. I can't recall having any malf's with all the 11.5" guns I've owned or used, and I have owned 3 different ones in the past. The only time I've seen malf's with a good 11.5" gun was with Russian ammo. The 10" guns are much louder as well, so I prefer to have some type of can or muzzle device on them that deals with sound, effectively increasing the barrel length to what an 11.5" or 16" would be.
PDW trunk gun quest - BjornF16 - 08-06-2011
Any recommendations on manufacturers with know how on short ARs?
What about integral barrel/suppressor?
PDW trunk gun quest - BjornF16 - 08-06-2011
I'm now working with a lawyer for NFA trust...(seems like a cottage industry...do these guys support NFA to increase their business?)
PDW trunk gun quest - Variable - 08-06-2011
BjornF16 Wrote:Any recommendations on manufacturers with know how on short ARs?My vote would be COLT. They know more about the platform and how to make a shorty run than about anyone. They've been doing it since the beginning. I have a Colt 6933 that runs flawlessly, and were I to grab another one, I'd get one again. The only other thing I'd want would be their Monolithic if it was available in an 11.5" barrel.
BjornF16 Wrote:What about integral barrel/suppressor?Personally I wouldn't get an integral. I'd hate to pay for a really good can and then have it permanently married to only one upper.
I haven't paid much attention to the can market lately (I already have 6, so I need to take a break!LOL). I have an older style AAC M4-2000 that I really like, but I also have an AAC 762-SD can that I really love as well. The 762-SD is a .30 cal. can, so it works on about anything .30 cal. Or smaller. I use it on 7.62, 6.5 Grendel, and 5.56. It works real well on all three. It's larger in size than a 5.56 can, but it still works well on the 5.56 platform, and has less blow back because of the larger volume. Food for thought anyway...
PDW trunk gun quest - Variable - 08-07-2011
BjornF16 Wrote:I'm now working with a lawyer for NFA trust...(seems like a cottage industry...do these guys support NFA to increase their business?)That I don't know.LOL. Unfortunately trusts weren't en vogue when I started buying stamps, so all of my stuff is papered only to me. Were I just starting now, I'd most likely go the trust route as well.
PDW trunk gun quest - Variable - 08-07-2011
LRRPF52 Wrote:Variable,Same here. I'd stick to the 11.5" uppers. I have one 7.5" upper, but it's only a novelty to me. I mainly use it with a .22lr adapter, and it only sees 5.56 to blow the lead out.
That's an interesting suggestion, as I imagine both people could be co-owners/trustees of the trust. Good idea.
Bjorn,
For reliability, an 11.5" or 12.5" AR is hard to beat with the short AR's, as long as the barrel is made by a reputable manufacturer with the know-ho on gas port diameter. Things start to get sketchy from there as you get into the 10" barrels, but some apparently are reliable with the right gas ports, gas system and recoiling parts balance, and ammunition. I can't recall having any malf's with all the 11.5" guns I've owned or used, and I have owned 3 different ones in the past. The only time I've seen malf's with a good 11.5" gun was with Russian ammo. The 10" guns are much louder as well, so I prefer to have some type of can or muzzle device on them that deals with sound, effectively increasing the barrel length to what an 11.5" or 16" would be.
I have an AA 10.5" in the Grendel that runs like a raped ape, so there are exceptions, but other than that I'm an 11.5" guy as well.
For obnoxious blast, I'd have to give the ribbon to my 10.5" 6.5 Grendel!!! I fired it in an enclosed stand exactly ONCE. I'll never do that unsuppressed again!!! With the AAC can it's a pussy cat though.
I'm interested in Templar's new can too, so when I get some toy funds back I may pursue one of those, depending on the stats. I'd like to build a light weight Grendel with AA's G10 forend. A titanium can might be sweet for that.
PDW trunk gun quest - LRRPF52 - 08-08-2011
I'll be doing a 723 or 727-style KISS carbine in the near future, and I'm planning on doing a FSB pocket cut on one of the old tubular rifle-length guards that were emerging in that early-90's era with certain folks. With a reflex can over the 14.5" pipes, it looks like an MP5SD kinda, and allows more forward mounting of your light so you don't get muzzle shadow like on a carbine handguard gun.
I was able to get some A2 "blem" uppers from LAR for like $48 per, so that will push me in the 727 direction of course. I still haven't decided if I'll SBR and do a regular can, or have a reflex made out of Ti.
My last can was an Ase Utra CQB-QD that attached to a standard A2 or A1 flash suppressor, but I didn't really like that design so much relying on alignment of a rack-grade thread job, and the added weight of the QD mech. I think direct thread-on is much more practical, and definitely lighter.
For a car gun, the benefits of a suppressor can't be overstated enough, but I will want it as short as possible. I have noticed that 7.62 weapons suppressed can be made much quieter than a 5.56, which still has a piercing crack not present in some of the better .30 cal cans.
Variable, is the Grendel more in the same boat as the 7.62 with regards to suppressed report?
PDW trunk gun quest - Variable - 08-08-2011
LRRPF52 Wrote:Variable, is the Grendel more in the same boat as the 7.62 with regards to suppressed report?Kind of embarrassing, but I don't know.:o I don't have any 308 semi platforms anymore, and we don't have them at work either, so I can't really make an honest comparison. I dumped all of my semi 308s a long time ago, and only have an old Remmy PSS bolt gun left. I never really paid that much attention to the ballistic crack between different cartridges. When I ever get around to shooting the Remmy again, I'll try to compare them (with my poorly calibrated mk1 "earball" anyway.LOL). I don't expect it would be fair to put a bolt gun against a semi, but maybe I can aurally edit out the action noise somehow.
I should probably get another 308 at some time, but with the toy fund currently near empty, it'll be a while. I expect you are probably right. I don't know if raw velocity plays a part in it or not. Sorry I couldn't be of better help though.
FWIW, the 5.56 rounds do seem a little "crisper"/"sharper", but I have no idea how that would pan out on a meter. If sound pressure levels were equal, and they were just higher in pitch, I'd bet they probably fall off faster at distance. I couldn't responsibly say for sure though.
PDW trunk gun quest - LRRPF52 - 08-08-2011
One of the quietest rigs I have heard is an AK with a BR Tuote suppressor. Even from the ejection port side, I was surprised at how quiet it is. Listening to 5.56 and 7.62 NATO or 7.62x39 suppressed all in the same range session clearly leaves 5.56 as the more offensive of the three. I'll bet that the Grendel with it's lower pressures and larger bore diameter would exhibit a milder muzzle report when suppressed.
PDW trunk gun quest - bwaites - 08-08-2011
The velocity "crack" of 5.56 is noticeably more audible to people than larger calibers. I think that sound falls in the range that humans seem to pick up on more readily.
To me it has two components...There is a sound pressure wave that you feel, and one that you hear. 5.56 has almost NO felt sound pressure, while the audible signature is very distinctive. I shot a match Saturday, and I could easily differentiate the .308 rounds I was pulling from the 5.56 rounds on the target next to me, and it wasn't because of where I was. I was actually pulling and marking my target, plus a .300 WinMag target between my .308 and the .223, so I was standing in the middle by the .300 WinMag target with my target to my left and the 5.56 to my right. It was easy to hear which was 5.56 and which .308. (The guy shooting the .300 WinMag was regularly giving us a dirt shower shooting into the berm above us, and his rounds were tumbling at 600, causing the "bumblebee" sound. There was something definitely wrong with his rifle.)
PDW trunk gun quest - LRRPF52 - 08-08-2011
Bill,
That made a lot more sense when I figured out that you were describing the sound and pressure wave effects on the receiving end down in the target pit.
PDW trunk gun quest - glane5910 - 08-21-2011
I've been so tied up building other than 5.56 that I guess I should put one together just for the above reasons. I've got my Scout Squad 308 so I'm good if the zombies strike before I can put a 5.56 together!!
PDW trunk gun quest - LRRPF52 - 09-22-2011
Did you guys see this? This actually may make me forget doing a Mini and keep the AR continuity, since I already have plenty of mags. I actually bookmarked these guys today, which I don't usually do with AR builders.
http://www.lokiweaponsystems.com/products/lwsf-gat-rifle/
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Jwilson1985, we need to be hearing more from you. Imagine a can on this and it nestled nicely behind your passenger seat...mmm mmm mmm
PDW trunk gun quest - fanofflyn - 09-22-2011
There is no audible crack if you're hit with the first shot in an effective place, with any of the above.
--fanofflyn
PDW trunk gun quest - LRRPF52 - 09-22-2011
It's more like a ziiiiiiiiIIIIIIIIPPPP
We need to see some videos of that GAT carbine in action. Jwilson....