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+--- Thread: 120 class powders (/showthread.php?tid=24784)
120 class powders - myrifle - 08-10-2022
Dt219 Wrote:I did see some big jumps, and is that ladder bad ? ? ? I didnt shoot them for groups yet. The magnetospeed kills my groups. I do wish just once I could get a load with low sd and it group good at least 3/4 moa and be consistent. I believe his method will work fine getting low sd consistently but I have yet to get small groups using it. Most of the time my low sd groups aint pretty lol. Well its not really funny.
Powder charge first for tiggt/low sd/es.
Then seating depth too close up the groups.
Personally I find the scatterlee method too be worthless.
If it was me I would rerun that ladder but do 3 to 5 shoots per charge, letting the barrel/chamber cool between charges.
Then find a node in that ladder too test seating depths around.
120 class powders - Klem - 08-10-2022
Dt,
StoneH is right, there is something wrong with that load work-up.
Here it is visually.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]19024[/ATTACH]
The depth of those troughs defy reality. Specifically, you cannot put more powder in and expect less velocity.
We can expect the relationship between powder and velocity not to be exactly a straight line - a bit of a wobble maybe - the Satterley people will then use this to fine-tune their loads. But the troughs are never deep enough that it implies putting more powder in will give less velocity. Not just once, which may be dismissed as an aberration, but three times: 25.8, 26.5, and 27.
Velocity never goes backward as you put more powder in. Something is amiss with the components, loading, measuring, or recording.
120 class powders - Dt219 - 08-10-2022
Ok thanks guys. I feel like I should just sell the magnetospeed and buy another chrono. It works fine but it trashes my groups. Would be nice to get group size and data in one trip. I was careful loading and recording the data. The only thing that could have possibly happened is rounds maybe out of order. Dont see how it could have happened.
120 class powders - grendelnubi - 08-10-2022
Looks like there is a velocity node between 26.7 - 27.1 as you have indicated. 11 fps over .4 grains is a respectable node. If you are wanting to work on the higher velocity limits you could also look at 27.3 - 27.5 and see where it goes. Much smaller but worth it if you need higher velocity.
I use the Satterlee method sometimes and it works for me, especially in today's component market.
120 class powders - Dt219 - 08-10-2022
grendelnubi Wrote:Looks like there is a velocity node between 26.7 - 27.1 as you have indicated. 11 fps over .4 grains is a respectable node. If you are wanting to work on the higher velocity limits you could also look at 27.3 - 27.5 and see where it goes. Much smaller but worth it if you need higher velocity.
I use the Satterlee method sometimes and it works for me, especially in today's component market.
Most of the time it dont work for me. Dont know why I keep trying to strike gold. Its a miracle drug to some, snake oil to others lol Thanks
120 class powders - Klem - 08-10-2022
Dt219 Wrote:Most of the time it dont work for me. Dont know why I keep trying to strike gold. Its a miracle drug to some, snake oil to others lol Thanks
I agree, with only one shot at each increment it is akin to religion; faith-based and wishful thinking. Satterley's logic makes sense however, but the idea that powder resonance (if it exists) will reveal itself with only one round fired for each increment belies the statistically nature of a Normal distribution. You need to fire several shots at each increment to get an idea of the Normal distribution curve. Then you can predict with more accuracy.
120 class powders - grendelnubi - 08-10-2022
Try the 26.7 - 27.1 node and see if it works or not.
If it does, use the 80% wasted components you would have used with the OCW method to fine tune.
120 class powders - Klem - 08-10-2022
grendelnubi Wrote:Try the 26.7 - 27.1 node and see if it works or not.
If it does, use the 80% wasted components you would have used with the OCW method to fine tune.
With respect, this advice is based on the premise your initial findings are correct - unfortunately they are not.
120 class powders - grendelnubi - 08-10-2022
You don't know Klem if the advice is correct or not till it is verified. This is only the first step and the reason we call it a load development process.
DT, you do whatever you think you should. Don't be bullied into believing there is only one way, (their way or no way) because fact is no one knows till the work is done.
120 class powders - Harpoon1 - 08-10-2022
I use it all the time to find out whether a new primer/powder combo will play nice together. Why load 25-30 rounds, when 8-10 is sufficient? Occasionally one shot is an outlier that may give the appearance of a possible false node but those outliers generally arent the real problem. Its really pretty obvious when theres an issue with some primer/powder combinations and there is no need to fire multiple rounds for each charge weight to expose it.
Is it a perfect test, no! But is sure does speed things up, save a ton of components and give me some likely
areas to explore.
https://youtu.be/hNjtKB3mqiI
120 class powders - LRRPF52 - 08-10-2022
I think the most overlooked aspects of load development are:
1. Shifts in the shooting position, even as minute as moving from the top row of dots/diamonds to the 2nd and subsequent bottom rows if working it like reading a paper, from Top Left down to Bottom Right.
2. Muzzle velocity changes due to the shooters upper body mass recoiling differently than the original position on the first dot.
We know that position and shooter upper body mass affect muzzle velocity, so a lighter weight shooter will see much wider ES in their measured velocities and attribute that ES to components, load procedure, chamber temp, etc.
Without a fixed mechanical rest, the best position to do load development is prone, front and rear bag supported, squared-off on the rifle, not cocked to the side. Place as much as your body mass behind the rifle to resist recoil and the muzzles physical location relative to the shot when the projectile leaves the barrel.
A scrawny shooter will have significantly more rearward displacement of their upper body, which means the muzzle is physically moved rearward more as the bullet exits.
A larger, firmer upper body mass shooter will maintain muzzle position better, and therefore tighten ES, experience less disturbance to the position, which helps with positional repeatability and grouping.
120 class powders - StoneHendge - 08-10-2022
Ironically, there is a statistical probability that Satterlee will appear to work for some people through pure chance.
120 class powders - Zeneffect - 08-10-2022
I had to look up the Satterlee method, and I had a good chuckle. Reading through this thread, I must be doing load development wrong because I don't do 90% of this stuff or even have it in mind. Groups are a tertiary concern to me. In order: safety, es/sd, groups. Groups can be tuned easily, the other 2 are far more important imo. I've put down a few ragged holes with terrible sd and that does not translate well further down range.
120 class powders - Old Bob - 08-10-2022
"A larger, firmer upper body mass shooter will maintain muzzle position better, and therefore tighten ES, experience less disturbance to the position, which helps with positional repeatability and grouping." Quote LRRPF52
Eat more bacon!
:p
120 class powders - Zeneffect - 08-10-2022
I think we should quantify scrawny, etc. As the mental pictures can be pretty wildy different.
120 class powders - Harpoon1 - 08-10-2022
StoneHendge Wrote:Ironically, there is a statistical probability that Satterlee will appear to work for some people through pure chance.
How about if it worked 95 times out of 100?
120 class powders - StoneHendge - 08-10-2022
Harpoon1 Wrote:How about if it worked 95 times out of 100?
Statistically likely for a very small population.
120 class powders - Klem - 08-10-2022
grendelnubi Wrote:You don't know Klem if the advice is correct or not till it is verified. This is only the first step and the reason we call it a load development process.
.
Nubi,
I am afraid those results defy the principles of chemistry and so at some point we can safely say they are incorrect. The idea you put more powder into a case, expecting it to impart less velocity than a lesser amount of powder is unreasonable.
By all means replicate Dt's loads yourself and let's see the graph. The idea results should be the repeatable is the hallmark of reliability and validity.
120 class powders - Harpoon1 - 08-10-2022
StoneHendge Wrote:Statistically likely for a very small population.
Touché!
Well, I can only report my results!
120 class powders - Dt219 - 08-10-2022
LRRPF52 you tracking me ???? Lol I never thought about weight and position affecting muzzle velocity. I am 6 150. Tall and bad slim. Im not saying the satterlee method dont work, Im just saying I have not been able to make it work. Well I take that back. It is good for low es/sds l, and I can shoot small groups in the past just combining them I have trouble using his ways