+- 6.5 Grendel Forum (https://65grendel.com)
+-- Forum: 6.5 GRENDEL FORUM NEWS (https://65grendel.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=5)
+--- Forum: General Discussion (https://65grendel.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=26)
+--- Thread: MSR Pistol Designation In Doubt? (/showthread.php?tid=22128)
MSR Pistol Designation In Doubt? - A5BLASTER - 10-27-2020
AZHTfreak Wrote:More potentially bad news. The unelected burocráticos in ATF FATD are possibly (probably) reclassifying ALL AR pistols to SBR or AOW primarily based on weight and subjective determination of single-handed operation... Setting the table should the Meatsack and Bolshevek get elected IMHO.
https://comms.wiley.law/8/3583/october-2020/alert--atf-interpretive-change-restricts-handgun-imports-and-may-require-nfa-registration%282%29.asp?sid=a452ea75-2271-421a-8974-669a79e41dc6&fbclid=IwAR0AyIApHLaOlOEahBPSDk0jzoj51mhz5lpUsHwzERsUujSilEfEWjKs_Ac
Key word. " Importation" They are talking about weapons made outside the USA and being imported to the USA.
Not ar15 pistols made in the USA. Unless I missed something in the legal wordage they used.
MSR Pistol Designation In Doubt? - montana - 10-27-2020
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5mHmiNfZLM&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR1igiDSZPL-KWa6ozngSMDXJOIHJMFblr2GHpqfaw1zzS1uHP90s3BZhzw
MSR Pistol Designation In Doubt? - LRRPF52 - 10-27-2020
Heres the summary so far.
ATF tried changing its mind on its own determinations....got smacked down by Congressional oversight committee members with orders to cease.
ATF then found another way to thumb its oversight by switching tactics to going after manufacturers who were using pistol braces....got smacked down again by Congress and probably DOJ leadership again. This forced the 60 day stay on their cease and desist order.
Never to let malice be out-done by incompetence, they are now talking about re-classifying millions of pistols they have registered as pistols into AOWs.
A similar backlash will happen with even more smack-down from the Presidency, DOJ, and Congress.
Theyre so used to getting away with brazen criminal activity, that they think there wont be any consequences for this, and are hedging their bets on a Biden win.
MSR Pistol Designation In Doubt? - AZHTfreak - 10-27-2020
A5BLASTER Wrote:Key word. " Importation" They are talking about weapons made outside the USA and being imported to the USA.
Not ar15 pistols made in the USA. Unless I missed something in the legal wordage they used.
Having observed the ATF's historical actions, I'll state that imported or domestically manufactured will be a distinction without a difference in short order.
MSR Pistol Designation In Doubt? - LRRPF52 - 10-28-2020
This really feels like theyre teeing up for a major push for a new Assault Weapons Ban in 2021.
A lot of the wording in these new letters that were sent to importers, FFLs, and manufacturers is about pistols imported with certain features like being too heavy, able to hold magazines of 20rds or more, length under 26, and whatever features they feel like banning at the time, just submit and theyll tell you if they like it or not arbitrarily.
Reminds me of Lavrentiy Beria: Show me the man, and Ill show you the crime."
MSR Pistol Designation In Doubt? - montana - 10-28-2020
https://gunowners.org/rogue-secret-atf-interpretations-of-pistols-seek-to-undermine-president-trump-and-criminalize-gun-owners/?fbclid=IwAR1atAoeEzcNtwgDDuQIQY6ln9gsqt69-DXXaGQJudd2MrkGwGDAv3XGpHY
MSR Pistol Designation In Doubt? - grayfox - 10-28-2020
Of which all of this is a violation of the APA, Administrative Procedures Act, but to get that into effect somebody has to sue them.
Vague, uncertain, private and reg's put into effect without public notice, comment, and etc procedures is straightforward to smack down in court.
But somebody has to take them there.
Maybe with more of President Trump's new federal judges in place, this might be easier to do.
How big is "too big" I doubt if I can hold and fire a 454 casull with just one hand.
What is a rifle sight? this is an undefined term.
But yeah, more of the same-o same-o from the deep state snakes.
MSR Pistol Designation In Doubt? - AZHTfreak - 11-18-2020
Senate Bill 4841 - AIM Act of 2020
Summary: Gives the ATF more power/money, removes limits on the sharing of firearms trace data
https://www.firearmspolicy.org/atf_senate_bill
Hoping the GA Senate races work out, else I fear the Republic is lost...
MSR Pistol Designation In Doubt? - Mopardoctor - 11-22-2020
I also heard that pistol ammo must be straight walled cases and pistols that need a two handed hold to shoot or use a bipod are not handguns. That means the 500 S&W and T/C Contenders could be classified as AOWs or SBRs.
Mopar Doctor
MSR Pistol Designation In Doubt? - StoneHendge - 11-23-2020
Mopardoctor Wrote:I also heard that pistol ammo must be straight walled cases and pistols that need a two handed hold to shoot or use a bipod are not handguns. That means the 500 S&W and T/C Contenders could be classified as AOWs or SBRs.
Mopar Doctor
That would also make a 13 ounce 1.875" barreled S&W .357 Airweight an SBR
MSR Pistol Designation In Doubt? - biodsl - 11-23-2020
StoneHendge Wrote:That would also make a 13 ounce 1.875" barreled S&W .357 Airweight an SBR
And the .357 Sig a rifle cartridge.
MSR Pistol Designation In Doubt? - biodsl - 12-17-2020
The latest from Military Arms Channel
[video=youtube;YxFEgsEL92U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxFEgsEL92U[/video]
MSR Pistol Designation In Doubt? - grayfox - 12-17-2020
I don't think politics or emails will help, unfortunately. We need some conservative activist lawyers to file suit that such letters violate the APA and therefore need to be nullified. APA (Administrative Procedures Act) governs rulemaking, it is not legal to pose as a rule without going through the entire rulemaking process, and making a "rule" that is vague and undefined also is in violation of the APA.
Guidance or "letters" are not enforceable as law. This has been proved many times for other agencies.
Liberal activists have used this approach for years, it's time we did the same.
MSR Pistol Designation In Doubt? - biodsl - 12-17-2020
grayfox Wrote:I don't think politics or emails will help, unfortunately. We need some conservative activist lawyers to file suit that such letters violate the APA and therefore need to be nullified. APA (Administrative Procedures Act) governs rulemaking, it is not legal to pose as a rule without going through the entire rulemaking process, and making a "rule" that is vague and undefined also is in violation of the APA.
Guidance or "letters" are not enforceable as law.
Agreed. Lawfare. Is this the approach Gun Owners of America is likely to use?
MSR Pistol Designation In Doubt? - grayfox - 12-17-2020
I hope so, or something else I don't know of...
If I had Tony Stark's money I'd find some myself.
The other thing Libs seem to do (imo) is to shop around until they find a judge who is sympathetic to their cause.
MSR Pistol Designation In Doubt? - Oso Polaris - 12-17-2020
Pistol Braces are under review by ATF for change of status. Proposed regulation (under review) would change their classification to SBR and would require you to register any AR Pistols or similar firearms with pistol braces. It looks like the "Poor Man's SBR" Loophole will be closing soon...
https://blog.princelaw.com/2020/12/16/atf-to-institute-rulemaking-regarding-stabilizing-braces-and-require-registration-of-currently-owned-braces/
MSR Pistol Designation In Doubt? - StoneHendge - 12-17-2020
grayfox Wrote:Guidance or "letters" are not enforceable as law.
If you use that tactic, it is/was a felony everytime someone put(s) an arm brace against their shoulder
MSR Pistol Designation In Doubt? - grayfox - 12-17-2020
SH, unsure what you mean... thats a simple statement, Im reading the draft now, they are apparently going to post it as a guidance thing and ask for comments, it may be a 14 day period, so watch out it might get posted dec. 24... anyway the draft also indicates they plan to initiate a rule making, and other steps like allowing a registration with waived $200 tax for current owners... still reading the draft however. Fwiw.
I retired from a federal agency that issued guidance docs from time to time in our area of regulation... so Im just speaking from experience.
edit to add (p. 13 of the draft): "The contents of this document do not have the force and effect of law and are not meant to bind the public in any way."
That's all I was saying in the earlier post.
MSR Pistol Designation In Doubt? - Fess - 12-18-2020
The change is not really surprising if you actually read the BATFE letter to SB Tactical in March 2017.* This is the letter that many have said allowed the blanket approval of "pistol arm braces". When I read it, I did not come to the same conclusion and was frankly amazed that it was interpreted as such. According to my reading, the letter applied to virtually none of the arm braces being sold. Then again, I spent years reading government regulations and guidance letters. My job was to make sure the factories I worked for (that generated hundreds of tons of hazardous waste) were in compliance with OHSA and EPA regulations. There were massive fines and potential jail time if I screwed up, so I learned to pay attention to details in regulations and determinations made by regulating agencies.
Determination letters like this one tend to apply only to the particular example submitted for evaluation. The letter specifically mentions features that were important in the determination. These features are not shared by the majority of shoulder braces sold since then.
Emphasis has been placed on the parts that stood out to me in the letter BATFE sent to SB Tactical. The determination is for a brace "... designed, intended and marketed for use only to shoot from the arm..." An important observation is that the foam on the unit evaluated was soft and floppy to easily conform the the shape of the shooters forearm when it was strapped on. It made a crappy shoulder stock. That helped demonstrate its intent. Any feature that makes a brace a better shoulder stock undermines the argument that its design and intent is to be used "only to shoot from the arm".
The BATFE also noted that the particular pistol-brace that they evaluated was not comfortable to shoot from the shoulder, something they consider pertinent to demonstrating the "intent" that it was unsuitable for use as anything but a forearm brace. This is spelled out clearly in the letter: "With respect to stabilizing braces, ATF has concluded that attaching the brace to a handgun as a forearm brace does not "make" a short-barreled rifle because in the configuration as submitted to and approved by the FATD, it is not intended to be and cannot comfortably be fired from the shoulder."
In other words, a brace must be uncomfortable when used as a shoulder stock for this determination to apply. This seemed so obvious to me that a few months ago in another forum, I joked that attorneys will probably start telling their braced-pistol owners to yell "OUCH" each time they shoot them from the shoulder. The big question to me now is whether any legitimate forearm braces will be exempted from the latest determination to allow the handicapped shooters, for whom the braces were initially designed, to continue to use them. It is clear to me that for this to happen, the brace must be damned painful to use from the shoulder.
*The March 2017 ATF letter can be seen on SB Tactical's website: https://www.sb-tactical.com/resources/batfe-letter-reversal-opinion-use/
MSR Pistol Designation In Doubt? - LRRPF52 - 12-18-2020
The thing is, they still have yet to explain and issue a standard by which they evaluate any of these devices.
I dont recognize them as a lawful organization since they are a direct contradiction to the Constitution, but if I was looking at it from a position of compliance, I would look for very specific dimensional, materials, manufacturing processes, and relevant call-outs that can be easily quantified. Not, Is it uncomfortable?"
In typical jack boot ATF fashion, these mini tyrant sociopaths never specify those things, because like Levantia Beria would say, Show me the man and Ill show you the crime.
Almost every single pistol brace Ive seen has an elastomer arm-wrap section with adjustable strap, usually elastic with hook and pile tape.
The elastomer section is attached to the polymer body, which attaches to the RET.
The industry has literally been formally asking the ATF to provide pistol brace specifications for over a decade, to which they have always refused.
Just in case anyone was wondering what tyranny looks like, were living under it.