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6.5 Grendel versus 6mm ARC for whitetail - SDguy - 03-14-2021
For the Hand loader I do not think you could go wrong with either choice. For the Op it sounds like the Grendel is a clear best option of the two due to more choices for ammo (hunting bullets) this coming season. Short barrel doesn't give up much to speak of for either option. In years to come ammo choices are likely to level out making this a bit more of a coin toss for the non reloader as well.
This coming season will be my first go with a 6mm ARC & I will be using a 22 inch bolt action. I am a reloader, yet I still have not acquired the rifle barrel or reloading dies. I am 2 months or more out before Ill have a 6mm Arc rifle to work with. Ammo and reloading components can be scarce for both. I may never buy 6mm arc ammo or brass due to current pricing and availability. Looks like Ill be making my 6mm arc brass from 6.5 grendel & 220 Russian Lapua again due to Availability and pricing.
Suppose it will be nice to have choices. The likelihood that Ill opt for a shot over 200 yards is slim. If I had to use either round I don't think I would feel compromised.
6.5 Grendel versus 6mm ARC for whitetail - TR1Hemi - 03-25-2021
Totally depends on the game, here in western Nebraska on my own property we have both Muleys and Whitetails. Pure Muley hunting is more stalking draws and ridges, and they are bigger, so 6.5 wins hands down. The 6 has merits for the extra range but not enough to outweigh the barrel length/weight and penetration penalty. I recovered a Muley doe quartering away shot with a Hornady 123 SST hand load, that went through the shoulder blade and lodged under the hide, on the opposite side at the base of the neck and the bullet weighed 109gr. Personally I think the 6ARC was an answer to a question that was not asked, much like the 204. We already had the 17 Rem, and the 20 Practical that could have been commercialized, and we could have used our 223 dies with a smaller bushing.
6.5 Grendel versus 6mm ARC for whitetail - SDguy - 05-28-2021
VASCAR2 Wrote:The 6.5 Grendel SD according to available load data.
The Sectional Density for the 120 grain Gold Dot is .246
The Sectional Density for the 129 grain ABLR is .264
The Sectional Density for Hornady 120 grain GMX & 123 grain AMAX/SST is .246-.252
The Sectional Density for the Barnes 100 grain SST .205, 120 grain TSX/TTSX .246
For 6 MM ARC Hornady list Sectional Density for 80 grain GMX .194, 90 grain GMX .218, 95 grain SST .230, 100 grain Interlock BTSP .242
Glad We have the numbers to compare. I do not think Id feel at all compromised with a 100 grain Interlock BTSP or Berger 108 gr Elite hunter SD @ .242 & .261 BC @ .405 & .559 respectively. Though Ill be launching these From a 22" Bolt action @ roughly 2800 FPS give or take 50 FPS. Feel fortunate to have a good stock of each of these 6mm bullets in stock. We will see how load work up plays out as to which one shoots best.
6.5 Grendel versus 6mm ARC for whitetail - SDguy - 01-20-2022
Well contrary to my expectation this year deer was taken at a bit over 200 yards. Laser range finder verified 254 yards. Admitted last year about this time that the 243 is just to large to fit in one of my favorite micro bolt action rifles. See The 204 Ruger introduced me to the CZ 527 action & I have always liked that little Mauser action. Though I grew up with a 6mm Remington which would have been enough gun for anything I have hunted over the years.
Well they did chamber the CZ 527 in 7.62 x 39 & more recently in 6.5 Grendel. Both fine cartridges in the right application I am sure. I own both & have liked the 6.5 Grendel just fine going on 6 years now. Though I wanted the flexibility of a little lighter bullet while still maintaining a decent BC.
We are in luck as Hornady recently commercialized the 6mm ARC with a fast twist that looked very appealing to me. Gave Pacnor a call about this time last year to see if they could spin up a drop in barrel for the little 527. Initial answer was I do not think we can offer that. Though with little deeper digging They realized this in fact was one of their new offerings.
Well next I asked about a 7.5 twist 5 groove & low & behold that was going to be a new offering for them. Wasn't long & I had a 22" light contoure barrel on order. Late last summer the barrel finally arrived. My 1st custom barrel. What can be said other than there were no disappointments. Yes acquiring brass & bullets was a bit of a challenge.
By hunting season I had a few loads worked up for factory brass as well as fire formed brass made from Lapua 220 Russian. Settled on 2 bullets I was quite pleased with & chose the inexpensive pulled 95 GR Gold-dot type bullet for opening day of deer season. The expansion characteristics of that bullet had me sold on a bullet that would really hold together & shoot quite accurate.
Opening day I passed on a small half rack buck. Following morning an extremely tall racked buck came in to the public ground parcel I was hunting. Only thing the wind was all wrong to make a move on him. The area he was heading for was an area I termed the buck nest the previous day when walking through the area it was full of fresh rubs scrapes & near ideal bedding area. I was fairly sure he would bed down for the day in the nest.
Went home for lunch and switch loads to the heaviest flattest shooting hunting bullet for the 6mm ARC. after lunch I stoped out at the rifle range & re zeroed the rifle with the 108 grain Elite hunter & was satisfied with a bit less than .75 MOA & spot on.
Back in my hide essentially stump sitting by 3:00 that afternoon Wind was cold & blowing hard out of the NW, until around 4:30 she started to die down. As the crow flies my stand was roughly 300 yards from where mr tall tines would have bedded down for the afternoon. As the wind started to fade The Blue jays could be heard calling out in alarm I expect as the buck began to make his way out of his nest. Roughly an hour before sunset I was busted by a buck that seen me before I seen him. He snorted & ran off.
To be honest I was discouraged confident the days hunt was over with having been busted, but then I noticed a large bodied deer heading out & around a slew bottom pretty much away from me.
6.5 Grendel versus 6mm ARC for whitetail - SDguy - 01-20-2022
Well as the brute stepped out of sight working around the slew bottom I opted to close the distance & see if he would do the same as he rounded the bottom cover. All this time the sun is setting & wind is dying down. Found myself as far as I felt comfortable going forward & in a small willow like tree. To my surprise as I snaked myself up in the willow like tree, an extremely solid rest was developed. The buck came into sight again continuing to close the distance.
Eventually he presented his full body Put his head down to sniff the ground at 254 yards per a range finder. The cross hairs were placed high the front shoulder the CZ 527 trigger was set & as things settled in solid, the trigger was touched & nothing happened. The trigger failed to fire
Re set the trigger & settled the crosshairs again. This time when the trigger was touched there was a mild crack of the rifle going off & a thwap crack as the bullet impacted to be heard.To my astonishment he was down & out right there. I had a deer cart back in the vehicle 3/4 of a mile back. By the time the cart was retrieved & I was back to the downed deer it was good & well dark.
Was getting really late by the time the deer had been dressed out & towed back to the rig time was near 9:00 pm. Good fortune was to be had as there was an approach I was able to back the pickup tailgate to, that placed the tailgate a bit lower than ground level. After he was properly tagged the cart was Just wheeled into the back of the rig with Tall tines on it. Secured everything forward & headed for home.
Was disappointed that lighting did not allow a photo in the field. The photo below was taken the next day.
6.5 Grendel versus 6mm ARC for whitetail - SDguy - 01-20-2022
Never did I feel that I would have been at an advantage if I were to have more displacement provided with the 6.5 Grendel.
Though I can share that the factory loads offered including the 103 grain ELDX load did not shoot well in this rifle. I did Experiment with the 103 GR ELDX for reloading a hunting load as well. Never did find a load that this rifle shined with using the 103 gr hunting bullet.
6.5 Grendel versus 6mm ARC for whitetail - grayfox - 01-20-2022
Nice going, I like it! I've been working on a 103 eldx load myself, that's the bullet I have so want to make it work altho I have thought about that 108...
So far I think I have something for the eldx at 2721, out of my 22" uintah bolt action, but need to validate it.
Great buck.
6.5 Grendel versus 6mm ARC for whitetail - chatterbox - 01-27-2023
I stand at my desk and applaud. Well said, especially the dig at Hornaday. Have you noticed the lack of support from the gun makers that the Grendel has, ever since Hornaday brought the 6mm ARC out? Justified? Hell no. look at the attached chart. The 6mm ARC is just a glorified .223 and I wouldn't use either for more than shooting prairie dogs and banging steel. The chart answers the Grendel/elk question but would be applicable for deer.[ATTACH=CONFIG]19469[/ATTACH]
6.5 Grendel versus 6mm ARC for whitetail - danm - 01-27-2023
chatterbox Wrote:I stand at my desk and applaud. Well said, especially the dig at Hornaday. Have you noticed the lack of support from the gun makers that the Grendel has, ever since Hornaday brought the 6mm ARC out? Justified? Hell no. look at the attached chart. The 6mm ARC is just a glorified .223 and I wouldn't use either for more than shooting prairie dogs and banging steel. The chart answers the Grendel/elk question but would be applicable for deer.[ATTACH=CONFIG]19469[/ATTACH]
That chart is a bunch of hogwash... 6arc a glorified .223??? That's some serious ignorance...
6.5 Grendel versus 6mm ARC for whitetail - biodsl - 01-28-2023
I looked at the chart for about five minutes trying to figure out the point. I gave up.
6.5 Grendel versus 6mm ARC for whitetail - chatterbox - 01-28-2023
Like the .223, the 6mm ARC has lots of velocity but little energy. Therefore both lack penetration capability and are designed and good for nothing but wounding and maiming. Viet Naum all over again. The Army loves that, but it is lousy for ethical hunting. (Say, I thought that this was a 6.5 Grendel blog, but it looks like the 6mm people are taking over here also.) So you can get a 6mm bullet accurate out to 1250 yards, but its not going to be able to do anything when it gets there. You will have to set up your iphone to relay the "ping".
6.5 Grendel versus 6mm ARC for whitetail - biodsl - 01-28-2023
If whitetail hunting is all you ask of a cartridge, the Grendel is the better choice, I agree. But let's not exaggerate and say 6mm bullets are useless.
6.5 Grendel versus 6mm ARC for whitetail - chatterbox - 01-28-2023
I didn't say the 6mm was useless, I said that it was only good for maiming and wounding, like the .223
Don't get me wrong on this, as I commend the .308 Winchester, but the thirty caliber is a perfect balance of velocity and energy. This is using formulae developed in the 1890's, and used ever since by armorers developing cartridges. As the diameter increases away from .30 you get more energy and less velocity, good for penetration but the bullet has difficulty expanding. Going smaller than .30 you get higher velocity and lower energy, good for expansion but poor penetration. The 5.56 is an extreme example of the latter and the 6mm ARC is its close relative.
In 1895 the Swedes stumbled upon the 6.5mm caliber and realized that, for ballistics, it is a better balance of energy and velocity than the .30. The 6.5 is THE sweet spot. Now we have a megala mania corporation, Hornaday, wanting to be the owner of the patent for the next US cartridge, the 6mm ARC, and she sabotages her nearest rival, the 6.5 Grendel. Her stooges are everywhere, but that does not detract from the fact that the 6mm ARC is a lousy hunting round.
6.5 Grendel versus 6mm ARC for whitetail - chatterbox - 01-28-2023
Set down you smart phone and upload the chart to your laptop so you can see it. Better yet, print it off at full size at 8.5x11. It took three weeks of running formulas to put the chart together (the original is much larger, running all the way up to .338 mag), you shouldn't expect to understand it in 5 minutes. Suffice it to say that the green zones are the ethical kill zones for the respective cartridges and loads. The 6mm, like the .223 barely has a kill zone. Whereas, it is readily obvious that the 6.5 Grendel is the only AR-15 round that can conceivably be used on elk.
6.5 Grendel versus 6mm ARC for whitetail - kmon - 01-28-2023
chatterbox Wrote:Set down you smart phone and upload the chart to your laptop so you can see it. Better yet, print it off at full size at 8.5x11. It took three weeks of running formulas to put the chart together (the original is much larger, running all the way up to .338 mag), you shouldn't expect to understand it in 5 minutes. Suffice it to say that the green zones are the ethical kill zones for the respective cartridges and loads. The 6mm, like the .223 barely has a kill zone. Whereas, it is readily obvious that the 6.5 Grendel is the only AR-15 round that can conceivably be used on elk.
Range would be more limited but would not hesitate to kill an elk with some other AR cartridges. 50 Beowulf, 458 socom are plenty within their range limitations.
Always strange by the charts the 44 magnum would not be enough for whitetail but inside its range it is fine for moose. I remember one gun writer that had written about needing at least 1000ftlbs to kill a whitetail then a bit later write about his moose hunt with the 44 magnum handgun whit which he got his moose.
ft/lbs calculation squares velocity giving it more than mass in the final numbers. For an extreme instance there are 22/250 varmint loads with more muzzle energy than the 45-70. I do not think anyone would hunt bison with a 22-250.
Joyce Hornady was a target shooter that started making bullets that would do all shots in one hole as his goal. It has morphed into a very successful bullet and ammo company that has introduced some good bullets and cartridges and some duds as well. they are very good at advertising and promotion. The only confirmed splash/crater wounds I have had on whitetails were all with Hornady bullets 140gr and 150gr Interlock bullets from a 7mm-08 and 308 Winchester respectively. Those were confirmed after a successful follow-up shot was made. Those and factory loads with ES of over 150fps makes me question manufacturing consistency at times and why I prefer my reloads for hunting. Oh forgot one Berger hunting bullet blowup from the 6.5-284
Nosler is my choice for hunting bullets for most of the calibers as I have never had one fail on game. Problem with them now days is supply or lack there of, but I bought 300 LRAB a few years ago for the Grendel and that will be enough for a while.
6.5 Grendel versus 6mm ARC for whitetail - JASmith - 01-28-2023
There are a huge number of 243 Win users who would disagree that 6mm bullets are useless for deer.
I am a Grendel fan who accepts that other cartridges will do as well or better in some areas. Nonetheless the Grendel continues to be the most flexible cartridge for game weighing less than about 350 lb.
True, the maximum range is somewhat less than larger 6.5 mm cartridges, but that maximum range for properly designed bullets covers all the territory an ethical hunter should consider taking a shot over.
Back to ARC bashing. As with the Grendel will do as well as the 243 or 6mm Creedmoor but with a somewhat reduced range to assure bullet terminal performance.
6.5 Grendel versus 6mm ARC for whitetail - JASmith - 01-28-2023
The energy argument was raised in an earlier post in this thread.
I do not know, when, when, or how our larger hunting community became mesmerized by energy as the principal metric for bullet lethality.
That energy fascination delayed hunting bullet evolution and still confuses the majority of hunters.
I do know, however, that I was part of that community until lI did some serious research in why the Grendel performs so well on game.
The note in this link provides a fairly detailed explanation of why bullet caliber is not particularly important so long as the bullet gets to the quarry within its design velocity. http://shootersnotes.com/ideal-bullet-weight-2/ideal-bullet-weight/
6.5 Grendel versus 6mm ARC for whitetail - chatterbox - 01-28-2023
The Bushmaster and Beowulf have a performance comparable to a .30-30. Would you advocate hunting elk with a .30-30? Of course not.
6.5 Grendel versus 6mm ARC for whitetail - chatterbox - 01-28-2023
Strange advocacy coming from a Grendel forum.
6.5 Grendel versus 6mm ARC for whitetail - kmon - 01-29-2023
Chatterbox you are the one that said "Whereas, it is readily obvious that the 6.5 Grendel is the only AR-15 round that can conceivably be used on elk." I was just pointing out there are others that can be used with enough power at shorter ranges that can be used. Many elk and 2 species of elk were hunted out that we no longer have with mostly black powder shooting large lead bullets. 17 and 1800s subsistence and market hunting killed a lot of what we consider game animals.
Inside 150 yards there are others, not saying they are the greatest choices but I am confident 3 of my 6 elk would have been shot and just as dead with the ones i named or the Grendel as they were from rounds used on them with the same shot placement. Know your equipment, its limitations and your limitations and happy hunting. 5 of the 6 would have been dead with the Grendel.
I love my Grendels. if I lived and hunted elk as a resident not paying for out of state license very with limited hunting time I would use the Grendel for elk without a doubt. It would be the CZ527 I had converted to Grendel before there were any bolt actions available in this great little round. I put it together as a light weight boltaction hunting rifle that is accurate and only weighs 7.2 lbs ready to hunt with, scoped, loaded and sling. Much more pleasurable to carry when hunting especially in the mountains than my heavier larger caliber rifles. I started with a 24 inch barreled AR and like what it does on game and target but just prefer bolt actions for deer hunting.
Hunting out of state on expensive hunts with limited time I carried larger longer range rifles such as 7mmSTW, 300 Weatherby to name a couple one trip the STW scope died so I used my backup 350 Remington Mag which worked great.