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+--- Thread: Who owns a CZ MTR,or an RAP? (/showthread.php?tid=20312)
Who owns a CZ MTR,or an RAP? - A5BLASTER - 02-09-2020
grayfox Wrote:I took my RAP tonite for some 130 Federal factory, and 115 Tac-tx. Both shot pretty well, around 1" maybe a bit better.
The Tac-tx, 4 shots, 2528 avg and SD-12.
The 130 Federal 4 shots, 2420 avg and SD-7.
They seem to have same POI as the 123 hornady factory, both sst and eldm. which is nice but we'll see if that holds up.
Thanks for the data Grey. Now if Barnes would get it in gear and get the loading bullet online we could see how it works in handloads.
Who owns a CZ MTR,or an RAP? - grayfox - 02-09-2020
Rifle feed... is better now that it's back. Still not perfect but slow-fire workable.
I use what I'm calling a push-pop, kind of a quick push to snap the round out, then it feeds to the chamber. Wouldn't be too trustworthy in winter-cold weather I'd guess, but any-hoooo.
I will have a fiddle-to-feed usually the last round, every 3 or 4 mag sets.
Longer coal's (2.260 range vice 2.210) seem to help.
A5 yeah I wanna see the raw bullets for sale too. The 115 is in a good weight for my shootin'.
Who owns a CZ MTR,or an RAP? - FLshooter - 02-09-2020
grayfox Wrote:Rifle feed... is better now that it's back. Still not perfect but slow-fire workable.
I use what I'm calling a push-pop, kind of a quick push to snap the round out, then it feeds to the chamber. Wouldn't be too trustworthy in winter-cold weather I'd guess, but any-hoooo.
I will have a fiddle-to-feed usually the last round, every 3 or 4 mag sets.
Longer coal's (2.260 range vice 2.210) seem to help.
A5 yeah I wanna see the raw bullets for sale too. The 115 is in a good weight for my shootin'.
My RAP feeds flawlessly. But every once in a while the boat is hard to pull back after a shot. I have cleaned the barrel several times and that helped a little bit. But it still does it on occasion.
Eventually I am going to get a custom barrel. And at that time I will have my gunsmith work the bolt for me too. In the end the only stock part will be the receiver.
Who owns a CZ MTR,or an RAP? - Harpoon1 - 02-09-2020
Quote:My RAP feeds flawlessly.......
Tell us more!
Which ammo and mags are using? Still prefer the ASC mags?
Who owns a CZ MTR,or an RAP? - FLshooter - 02-10-2020
I use 10 rd ASC mags.The only mags I ever used and I’ve never had a problem with them in any of my Grendel rifles. But the only bullet I shoot are 123 grain Hornady ELDM and 120 or 123 grain SMK.Hand loads only.
Only problem I have had which I posted around a month ago was that the bolt would sometimes get stuck after a shot. Not to where I had to use a mallet. I had to hit it with the palm of my hand and work in a bit to get it to open.
It did it four times in the first hundred rounds.I cleaned the barrel and the bolt functioned well. But through the next hundred rounds I had the bolt get tight on me a few times after shots. Not stuck tight, but I had to work it a bit to get it to pull it back.
Who owns a CZ MTR,or an RAP? - Harpoon1 - 02-10-2020
FLshooter Wrote:I use 10 rd ASC mags.The only mags I ever used and I’ve never had a problem with them in any of my Grendel rifles. But the only bullet I shoot are 123 grain Hornady ELDM and 120 or 123 grain SMK.Hand loads only.
Only problem I have had which I posted around a month ago was that the bolt would sometimes get stuck after a shot. Not to where I had to use a mallet. I had to hit it with the palm of my hand and work in a bit to get it to open.
It did it four times in the first hundred rounds.I cleaned the barrel and the bolt functioned well. But through the next hundred rounds I had the bolt get tight on me a few times after shots. Not stuck tight, but I had to work it a bit to get it to pull it back.
Roger that, thanks.
Guess I’ll have to give the ASC mags another chance. Run C Products and Elanders almost exclusively in the gas guns and saw little reason to change in the bolt guns, maybe that’s been my problem all along?
That and lighter, shorter bullets. I’ll let you know what happens. I sure would like to get to the bottom of this!
Who owns a CZ MTR,or an RAP? - Rosecrans1 - 02-10-2020
The ASC 5 and 10 rounders work best in my RAP. The 5 rounders are the ones I prefer. 100% functionality. The 10 rounders will hiccup the last round occasionally. I shoot everything from 100's to 130's in factory and reloads. For the RAP, it's all about the mag spring tension. Hint..................it doesn't like a lot of it!
Who owns a CZ MTR,or an RAP? - FLshooter - 02-10-2020
Rosecrans1 Wrote:The ASC 5 and 10 rounders work best in my RAP. The 5 rounders are the ones I prefer. 100% functionality. The 10 rounders will hiccup the last round occasionally. I shoot everything from 100's to 130's in factory and reloads. For the RAP, it's all about the mag spring tension. Hint..................it doesn't like a lot of it!I don’t own ASC 5 rd mags. But aren’t they the same as a 10 just with some kind of a block in it?
Who owns a CZ MTR,or an RAP? - Harpoon1 - 02-11-2020
Rosecrans1 Wrote:The ASC 5 and 10 rounders work best in my RAP. The 5 rounders are the ones I prefer. 100% functionality. The 10 rounders will hiccup the last round occasionally. I shoot everything from 100's to 130's in factory and reloads. For the RAP, it's all about the mag spring tension. Hint..................it doesn't like a lot of it!
How about another hint?
I cut 2 coils off the factory ASC spring. That left some tension on the follower in an empty mag. If I cut another full coil off, there is barely enough tension to hold the follower all the way up. I mean barely, I got the sense it would sag with the weight off a round on top of it.if I cut a half coil then I change the geometry of the spring, if that matters. The spring would look like Z instead of a W. Does that sound about right or are you using another brand of spring?
Thanks in advance
Who owns a CZ MTR,or an RAP? - Harpoon1 - 02-11-2020
FLshooter Wrote:I don’t own ASC 5 rd mags. But aren’t they the same as a 10 just with some kind of a block in it?
Correct.
Who owns a CZ MTR,or an RAP? - Rosecrans1 - 02-11-2020
I cut 2 coils off the factory ASC spring. That left some tension on the follower in an empty mag. If I cut another full coil off, there is barely enough tension to hold the follower all the way up.
Harpoon, you misunderstood me.
I don't do a thing with the ASC magazines. They worked stock in my RAP. I shaved one coil off an Elander and one of a C_Prod mag and they worked better. If you compare new ASC, Elanders and C Product comparable mags, the ASC mag doesn't have as much follower tension as the others.
I'm sorry you hacked up the ASC spring! I'll assume it wasn't working well out of the box.
Note that you should load up your new mags for a week or two to help them break in. Also note that brand new RAP's need some shots through them to function better. It shouldn't be that way and they should work with the mag that comes with them but many do not. Don't expect a bolt action like a nice well used rem 700 but you can expect the action to smooth out with shots fired.
Who owns a CZ MTR,or an RAP? - Harpoon1 - 02-12-2020
Rosecrans1 Wrote:I cut 2 coils off the factory ASC spring. That left some tension on the follower in an empty mag. If I cut another full coil off, there is barely enough tension to hold the follower all the way up.
Harpoon, you misunderstood me.
I don't do a thing with the ASC magazines. They worked stock in my RAP. I shaved one coil off an Elander and one of a C_Prod mag and they worked better. If you compare new ASC, Elanders and C Product comparable mags, the ASC mag doesn't have as much follower tension as the others.
I'm sorry you hacked up the ASC spring! I'll assume it wasn't working well out of the box.
Note that you should load up your new mags for a week or two to help them break in. Also note that brand new RAP's need some shots through them to function better. It shouldn't be that way and they should work with the mag that comes with them but many do not. Don't expect a bolt action like a nice well used rem 700 but you can expect the action to smooth out with shots fired.
It?s all good, no big deal. This mag will still work in other guns if it doesn?t in the Predator. I?d got several hundred rounds or more through this gun. Probably a lot more but I haven?t kept count. It?s never ?fed? well right out of the box. To be fair I never ran ASC mags because of the problems I had with them in the gas guns.
Anyway, appreciate your advice and help, I?ll try the ASC mag and report back.
Thanks again.
Who owns a CZ MTR,or an RAP? - Rosecrans1 - 02-12-2020
That's interesting because I had issues with ASC in my AR's also and I just happened to throw one in the RAP and noticed the better feeding. Tried them all and they just worked.
The 5 rounder worked better than the ten. (Each have the same dimensions).
Who owns a CZ MTR,or an RAP? - Harpoon1 - 02-12-2020
Rosecrans1 Wrote:That's interesting because I had issues with ASC in my AR's also and I just happened to throw one in the RAP and noticed the better feeding. Tried them all and they just worked.
The 5 rounder worked better than the ten. (Each have the same dimensions).
The front lip of the ASC is noticeably higher than the C Prod and E Lander mags. The rim of the case mouth can snag on the front lip of the mag causing issues. Filing it down to match the other mags seemed to help.
DNS had the same problem.
https://youtu.be/0Axr5m1Daxc
Who owns a CZ MTR,or an RAP? - FLshooter - 02-13-2020
My RAP did not like the C products mag that came with it. It would feed,but it felt like the bolt was hanging up. ASC mags feed flawlessly. However,the C products mag does work well in my AR Grendels.
Who owns a CZ MTR,or an RAP? - grayfox - 02-13-2020
Does that on mine too. The bottom edge of the bolt, that pushes the round fwd, hangs up on the backside of the follower -- which is a forward sloping section but the bolt seems to catch and almost cut in a little bit into it.
Who owns a CZ MTR,or an RAP? - Harpoon1 - 02-15-2020
Rosecrans1 Wrote:That's interesting because I had issues with ASC in my AR's also and I just happened to throw one in the RAP and noticed the better feeding. Tried them all and they just worked.
The 5 rounder worked better than the ten. (Each have the same dimensions).
Little update............I think we may have cracked the code on this RAP. Made up 5 Dummy rounds, 90 TNT/Starline/ 2.200 COL and they all fed perfectly from the ASC mag that I cut 2 coils off of. Crazy good! Even with 2 coils cut off there is still plenty pressure to hold the last round in place, however, I’m not getting the bolt hold open function out of this mag, and don’t remember if I ever did?. I can live with that, as long as feeds, I’m quite content.
Tried the same dummy rounds out a 4 round E-Lander, which is super tight, really high spring pressure, and I couldn’t even get the first round stripped off the mag. The bolt would hit the back of the first round and drive the mag forward and down before the round would start to move, by then the tip of the bullet was too low and would jam up against the feed lips. Done.
So, it appears it is spring tension that is the key, at least for me.
Thanks to all of you that helped sort this out!
Who owns a CZ MTR,or an RAP? - FLshooter - 02-15-2020
I don’t get it.My RAP works fine with ASC factory 10 rd mags .I never had to cut off any coils.Not that it would matter much.Sooner or later I’m going to get a custom barrel and have the bolt reworked.Only original part will be the receiver.
Who owns a CZ MTR,or an RAP? - Harpoon1 - 02-15-2020
FLshooter Wrote:I don’t get it.My RAP works fine with ASC factory 10 rd mags .I never had to cut off any coils.Not that it would matter much.Sooner or later I’m going to get a custom barrel and have the bolt reworked.Only original part will be the receiver.
Have you tried shorter bullets/rounds? Or, have all of your rounds been with 123 grn bullets and close to 2.260”?
Who owns a CZ MTR,or an RAP? - Harpoon1 - 02-15-2020
Both the Howa Mini and CZ Micro have slightly shorter actions than the Ruger Grendel, at least I think they do!
I saw this video a couple months ago then forgot where I saw it but then stumbled across it again a couple days ago. IMO, George Gardner describes the problem with the 6 Dasher, having a short case, on a longer than necessary action, and why he developed the 6GT. Well, at least one of the reasons, was for better feeding. Anyway, that is exactly what I think is happening with the Grendel and shorter bulllets, along with the Rugers longer than necessary action. When the case clears the mag, with shorter over all length ammo, there’s an additional 40,50,60 thousandth more distance to travel before the tip of the bullet enters the back of the chamber and can be assured of smoothly sliding into position. That extra distance is where thing can jump the tracks.
Anyway, here’s the link.
https://youtu.be/x8IAy898X6Q