HOWA Grendel 6.5 Out of the Box, Early Impressions

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HOWA Grendel 6.5 Out of the Box, Early Impressions - sneaky one - 03-06-2016

Is this the boltie bbl. being used to test the Cerb from BFT? If so, Hawwww whatttt?

Have the howa ceo. produce a group of less than 2 " at 100 yd. Good luck on that quest - ceo guy. PROVE that it shoots...

You'll sell more that way!

HOWA Grendel 6.5 Out of the Box, Early Impressions - bwaites - 03-06-2016

9 days ago I had the chance to take the Howa back to the range. After mounting the scope that came with the rifle, and using it for breakin, I realized that it simply was not going to work for any kind of accuracy testing. I swapped to my Target Nightforce 12-42 for that days testing, and, after initial zeroing of that scope set to work shooting groups and establishing Chrono data.

As best laid plans of men and mice often go, the Stars were not in alignment, and I did not get sufficient Chrono data due to a malfunctioning CED M2 Chrono. I cannot figure out why it is not working properly, so it will be going back for some factory checks. However, it did work enough times to get data for both factory Hornady and my hand loads to tell me that the velocities are within 50 FPS of my AR 20 inch Grendel, so I'm comfortable that I am seeing realistic velocities.

However, I could not initially shoot accurate groups with ANY load. This was very frustrating, because last time out, just while breaking in the barrel, I was able to shoot some sub MOA groups, even using the scope the factory sent. After the first round of 10 sets of 5 shots were not achieving anywhere near what I expected, I really went over the setup in an effort to figure out what the issue was. I finally found that my barrel was being touched, at times, by the front stop rod on my rest. It didn't happen with every target, but as I had about ten targets set up, all arranged on a large 4x5 foot backer, it would touch the barrel, especially on the lower two rows of targets. Once I corrected this, groups began to improve. I cannot be sure if it was that I was sometimes touching that rod, or if the barrel was slowly improving with breaking in, however.

From that point forward I was able to shoot significantly better groups, however. Since Matt had reported good groups with factory Amax ammo, I used that as my base. My best group with it after the above discovery was right at 1 MOA. Not as good as I had hoped, but not bad for a new factory rifle and barrel.

I then proceeded on to some hand loads. All were in Hornady brass (which will become important shortly). My best handloaded ammo produced this group, almost identical in size to the factory load. I think a little more development with this load will improve accuracy. I simply used loads that had been shown to be accurate in my AR Grendels, and I think this load can be seated out a tiny bit further and will shoot better, so I will load it like that for the next go around.

I then moved on to loads running the 130 AR Hybrid from Berger. These loads were also developed for my AR's, but one of them appears to be a golden apple.

A second looks very good, also. This load has shot sub 1/2 MOA from two of my three AR's, so I think it could be a winner also.

HOWA Grendel 6.5 Out of the Box, Early Impressions - bwaites - 03-06-2016

Now that I had nice groups, I loaded the Cerberus bullets and got, well......squat!

I thought I had something, with that first shot in the black, but then....

Here again, I thought I might be working....the first two touched and then......

I love the way these bullets look, and I have rolled them and the tips seem to stay perfectly in place, the tip/body junction is glass smooth. With my eyes closed, I can identify the junction about 50% of the time. They are all well machined and I believe well assembled. I REALLY want these to group well. I have some of each left, so I will continue research!

HOWA Grendel 6.5 Out of the Box, Early Impressions - bwaites - 03-06-2016

Finally, I ran across something completely unexpected. While testing, I attempted to test factory Alexander Arms loads built with Lapua brass. While they chambered and fired just fine, they would not extract. After repeated examples, using AA loads from the past 5-6 years and including multiple different bullets, I realized it must be the Lapua brass. It appears that the Lapua brass is simply a few thousandths smaller than Hornady brass. It will thus slide very slightly more into the chamber, thus the extractor will not grab the rim for extraction.

I am not 100% sure that this is the cause, but it is the only plausible explanation for the phenomena that I can deduce.

On arrival home and after cleaning the rifle, I very carefully tried multiple different lots of Hornady factory loads, and it all chambered and extracted 100% of the time. I then tried hand loads built with Hornady brass and had 100% success.

At point, I tried Wolf Gold MPT ammo and found that it extracts about 50% of the time. If the rifle is tilted back, the ammo falls out easily.

I then retried each load of Lapua/Alexander Arms factory ammunition I had. Not a single one would extract, but each will fall from the chamber when the rifle is tilted 30-45 degrees.

I have contacted Matt and he is already working on the solution to the problem. I suspect that the only available factory ammunition used for testing has been Hornady and that the rifle was carefully set up to that ammunition. As members of the forum are aware, new Lapua brass tends to run small. I have typically resized my Lapua brass back to factory dimensions as closely as possible. I will now leave it slightly larger, and see if that resolves the issue.

Matt at LSI has been incredibly supportive and helpful, and once this was discovered, he has been in touch with Bill Alexander to discuss what might be the issue.

I will continue to update this as I receive information.

HOWA Grendel 6.5 Out of the Box, Early Impressions - kmon - 03-06-2016

Interesting find on the non Hornady brass loads.

Your Berger 130 CFE load looks about like what I expect from my 2 rifles and that combination, seems to be one of those sweet spot loads we look for.

HOWA Grendel 6.5 Out of the Box, Early Impressions - Drift - 03-06-2016

Thanks for the report! I believe the Howa will be a success if their factory rifle can function and shoot factory ammo... accurately

HOWA Grendel 6.5 Out of the Box, Early Impressions - bwaites - 03-06-2016

I have no doubt it is going to be accurate, after seeing the 130 Berger groups. Alexander Arms no longer uses Lapua brass for factory loadings, I assume because it got ridiculously expensive. So far as I know, no one uses it for factory ammunition, although some of the boutique manufacturers may still load it at user request.

I am going to check my resized brass and see if it will extract.

HOWA Grendel 6.5 Out of the Box, Early Impressions - Matt @ LSI - 03-07-2016

an update from our end, we have submitted all info to the factory and are awaiting their response. Lapua brass does run smaller than hornady, this can be fixed easily by fitting the extractor but the factory should be able to fix this issue before the first production run. The rifles that were sent out for testing are in fact prototypes. Its always a gamble to send out prototypes to writers and etc.. the only ammo i have available to use is Hornady and weve never experienced an issue. Our rifles are warrantied for using factory ammo so thats what we go by.

I hope this clears up some worries, if there are any other questions you can email me @ mhornback@legacysports.com

HOWA Grendel 6.5 Out of the Box, Early Impressions - bwaites - 03-07-2016

Thanks Matt. No real gamble from my perspective. You've told everyone these are prototypes, and the reason manufacturers build prototypes is to test them.

This was completely unexpected from my view and it isn't a difficult fix.

HOWA Grendel 6.5 Out of the Box, Early Impressions - BluntForceTrauma - 03-08-2016

No worries here, Matt. All of us here are rooting for this project's success!

HOWA Grendel 6.5 Out of the Box, Early Impressions - Drift - 03-08-2016

You betcha I am rooting for the rifles success!

HOWA Grendel 6.5 Out of the Box, Early Impressions - Matt @ LSI - 03-08-2016

sneaky one Wrote:Is this the boltie bbl. being used to test the Cerb from BFT? If so, Hawwww whatttt?

Have the howa ceo. produce a group of less than 2 " at 100 yd. Good luck on that quest - ceo guy. PROVE that it shoots...

You'll sell more that way!

i dont know what it is you are getting at.

HOWA Grendel 6.5 Out of the Box, Early Impressions - Matt @ LSI - 03-08-2016

Howa Mini Action
Bolt OAL = 6.050” (13% shorter)
Bolt Body Diameter: .616” (9.4% smaller)
Front Ring Dia: 1.175” (12.7% smaller)
Rear Bridge Dia: 1.175” (12.7% smaller)
Receiver OAL: 7.175” (9.2% shorter)
Tang Length: 2.020” (virtually the same)
Tang Width: .865” (virtually the same)
Ejection Port Length: 2.1” (25.5% shorter)

HOWA Grendel 6.5 Out of the Box, Early Impressions - bwaites - 03-08-2016

Matt @ LSI Wrote:i dont know what it is you are getting at.

Sneaky uses a shorthand that takes some deciphering! He is asking of the bolt gun barrel came from BluntForceTrauma, the board owner.

Then he is saying, "The Howa CEO should be shooting the rifle, and let's see if he can create a 2" group at 100 yards, prove that it's the bullet and not the rifle that's at fault" (My interpretation!)

The last line means, "If the suits at Howa can shoot 2" groups, then anyone with a brain will know that the guys who know how to shoot will do much better and you'll sell a ton of rifles!" (My interpretation, again!)

Don't worry, lots of us have had to figure out what he is saying. More experience helps!

HOWA Grendel 6.5 Out of the Box, Early Impressions - Matt @ LSI - 03-08-2016

[video]https://youtu.be/ke5Mr5eCF2U[/video]

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ke5Mr5eCF2U" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

my mind instantly goes here.

HOWA Grendel 6.5 Out of the Box, Early Impressions - xlcc - 03-08-2016

Matt @ LSI Wrote:Howa Mini Action
Bolt OAL = 6.050” (13% shorter)
Bolt Body Diameter: .616” (9.4% smaller)
Front Ring Dia: 1.175” (12.7% smaller)
Rear Bridge Dia: 1.175” (12.7% smaller)
Receiver OAL: 7.175” (9.2% shorter)
Tang Length: 2.020” (virtually the same)
Tang Width: .865” (virtually the same)
Ejection Port Length: 2.1” (25.5% shorter)

Sounds just right to me.I'm really excited but looks like I'll have a long time to wait for them to be available in Canada.

HOWA Grendel 6.5 Out of the Box, Early Impressions - bwaites - 03-08-2016

matt @ lsi Wrote:[video]https://youtu.be/ke5mr5ecf2u[/video]

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ke5mr5ecf2u" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

my mind instantly goes here.

lol!!!!

HOWA Grendel 6.5 Out of the Box, Early Impressions - Rainman - 03-08-2016

bwaites: thank you for all your efforts so far and the good reporting. When this all comes together and you end up with a production rifle for final evaluation this will take a lot of unknowns out of the projects we usually expect when opening the box on a new factory firearm. Your efforts and dedication are appreciated. I for one will not be buying one with the intent of swapping barrels or stocks and based on my experience with Howa and hand loading I anticipate it will be possible to be get into the half MOA range with minimal tweaking of the rifle using proven 6.5 Grendel loads from the forum that have been accurate across a wide range of member's rifles. Hopefully

HOWA Grendel 6.5 Out of the Box, Early Impressions - Matt @ LSI - 03-08-2016

Rainman Wrote:bwaites: thank you for all your efforts so far and the good reporting. When this all comes together and you end up with a production rifle for final evaluation this will take a lot of unknowns out of the projects we usually expect when opening the box on a new factory firearm. Your efforts and dedication are appreciated. I for one will not be buying one with the intent of swapping barrels or stocks and based on my experience with Howa and hand loading I anticipate it will be possible to be get into the half MOA range with minimal tweaking of the rifle using proven 6.5 Grendel loads from the forum that have been accurate across a wide range of member's rifles. Hopefully

you sir, are much better with words than i am. well said!

HOWA Grendel 6.5 Out of the Box, Early Impressions - Rainman - 03-08-2016

...as I started to say, hopefully we will also have a production 20 MOA picatinny rail from EGW or some other quality manufacturer by the time the production rifles are ready for retail sales.