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+--- Thread: 7.62 / 6.5 / 5.56 vs concrete block (/showthread.php?tid=933)
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7.62 / 6.5 / 5.56 vs concrete block - stanc - 08-21-2011
I'll go out on a limb and predict that none of the mentioned loads will punch through the concrete block (capstone?) at 500 meters.
That is, if by "M118" LRRP means M118LR (175gr SMK). However, M118SB (173gr FMJ) is the one 7.62 load that I'd expect to get through.
For 6.5 Grendel, I think it'll require 139-144gr FMJ.
7.62 / 6.5 / 5.56 vs concrete block - LRRPF52 - 08-21-2011
Our sister Battalion in OIF had come under heavy fire in an urban area during the initial push up to Baghdad. I talked with one of the guys from that unit later in 2004, and he said he was just doing what he had been trained to do when he was in Ranger Regiment before coming to the 82nd...i.e. bounding with fires toward the enemy. They started taking fire from a Dshk heavy machinegun, and were pinned down on a city street. He called up his buddy on his ICOM. Previously, the dude had been complaining about being assigned the Barrett M107 .50 BMG. He was providing support for this particular line unit, and responded via his ICOM radio that he was already on it. A pause, a few coughs from the Barrett...and Dshk no longer an issue.
The Dshk gunners had been emplaced in a well-fortified gun position with plenty of cover to defeat small arms fire, including a block wall. This guy said that when they advanced onto the gun position, it looked like someone had just finished a water-melon smashing contest. The .50 had totally devastated the Iraqis behind the wall. From then on, the guy with the Barrett could often be seen cradling it...talking to it at times, never letting it out of his immediate control. That's 29 pounds of bad news if you're on the receiving end of that deal...
7.62 / 6.5 / 5.56 vs concrete block - warped - 08-21-2011
Each round was $5 well spent as well.
That is what is cost effective, not using a AGM 114 just for a crappy old Dushka crew served heavy MG.
7.62 / 6.5 / 5.56 vs concrete block - michaelmew - 08-21-2011
Stanc, thanks for taking the time to setup, videotape, edit, and share your video with us, everyone loves to see stuff blow up.
I'm wondering though, why did you decide to only shoot through one piece of concrete block. I think the point you were trying to illustrate was the effects on a person standing behind a cmu barrier. But, if you stop and think about it, the bullet would have to go through 1 side of the block plus air space (if not concrete reinforced) then another layer of concrete block and maybe even a layer of gypsum board. I would like to see if the bullets can maintain their lethality after that second layer of block and gyp bd.
I think JASmith made a good point about the wound channel effects when shooting at milk jugs. Unless the bullet goes all the way through, can we really determine how far it penetrated once it broke the surface? We need some kind of elastic container that can stretch, or a different media that can be measured. Furthermore, since our bodies are like 90% water, water seems like the logical best choice, but is it?
I realize we arent in a lab or anything like that, and I don't mean any disrespect. I think its awesome that you could make a video in the first place - that's more than I can say.
-michaelmew
7.62 / 6.5 / 5.56 vs concrete block - JASmith - 08-21-2011
warped Wrote:Each round was $5 well spent as well.How long would it have taken to get permission to use that AGM 114? Then, how long would it have taken to get the bird in the right spot to launch -- assuming the asset was already in the area?
That is what is cost effective, not using a AGM 114 just for a crappy old Dushka crew served heavy MG.
+1 for the Barrett! Money and training time well spent!!
7.62 / 6.5 / 5.56 vs concrete block - stanc - 08-22-2011
michaelmew Wrote:Stanc, thanks for taking the time to setup, videotape, edit, and share your video with us, everyone loves to see stuff blow up.Michael,
I'm wondering though, why did you decide to only shoot through one piece of concrete block. I think the point you were trying to illustrate was the effects on a person standing behind a cmu barrier. But, if you stop and think about it, the bullet would have to go through 1 side of the block plus air space (if not concrete reinforced) then another layer of concrete block and maybe even a layer of gypsum board. I would like to see if the bullets can maintain their lethality after that second layer of block and gyp bd.
I think JASmith made a good point about the wound channel effects when shooting at milk jugs. Unless the bullet goes all the way through, can we really determine how far it penetrated once it broke the surface? We need some kind of elastic container that can stretch, or a different media that can be measured. Furthermore, since our bodies are like 90% water, water seems like the logical best choice, but is it?
I realize we arent in a lab or anything like that, and I don't mean any disrespect. I think its awesome that you could make a video in the first place - that's more than I can say.
Thanks for the praise, but I'm afraid it's misplaced. I did not make the video, I found it while searching for 6.5 Grendel videos on youtube.
I'd love to make such a video, and I fully agree with you that it'd be better to use a CMU (instead of the capstone), backed up by ordnance gelatin to show the permanent wound channel.
However, not everybody has the ability (or desire) to work with gelatin, so I can understand why the producer chose to back up the block with jugs of water. While they are not as scientific as gelatin, the splash created does give a good indication of the bullets' remaining energy. Clearly, the 5.56 expended nearly all of its energy just getting through the block, while the larger calibers retained enough energy to violently displace the H2O.
Stan
7.62 / 6.5 / 5.56 vs concrete block - stanc - 08-22-2011
michaelmew Wrote:I think the point you were trying to illustrate was the effects on a person standing behind a cmu barrier. But, if you stop and think about it, the bullet would have to go through 1 side of the block plus air space...then another layer of concrete block... I would like to see if the bullets can maintain their lethality after that second layer of block...I can tell you from my own experience in doing such a penetration test, that (at 100 yards) 5.56 M855 doesn't even get through the second side of a CMU, so would have no post-barrier lethality.
In contrast, 7.62 M80 not only punched through both sides of one block, but went through one side of another CMU positioned behind the first. (See attached drawing.)
It'd be very interesting to see if a 6.5 Grendel FMJ load can equal 7.62 M80 penetration of a CMU at 100 yards.
7.62 / 6.5 / 5.56 vs concrete block - warped - 08-22-2011
JASmith Wrote:How long would it have taken to get permission to use that AGM 114? Then, how long would it have taken to get the bird in the right spot to launch -- assuming the asset was already in the area?
+1 for the Barrett! Money and training time well spent!!
You know it.
It is not like there is always an AH64 hovering over your shoulder.
7.62 / 6.5 / 5.56 vs concrete block - Variable - 08-22-2011
bwaites Wrote:Well, if I can prevail upon my source for 20-30 more bullets, I can use the 120 grain FMJ Norma.
[cough...]Is that a hint? LOL!!!
I still have that DVD for you too. I was setting on it waiting to have something cool to send with it, but no joy yet, so it wouldn't be problem to send a care package with some Normas in it. I just hated mailing a lonely DVD.
7.62 / 6.5 / 5.56 vs concrete block - mtn_shooter - 09-12-2011
I tend to agree that mass > material in general for most barrier penetration (ceramic/concrete). Then again if you are limited to roughly the same mass, material makes all of the difference, especially when dealing with real-deal armor plate.
168 grain .30-06 lead core is going to perform a LOT better than 62 grain steel core at similar velocities, but 165 grain .30-06 AP is going to perform considerably better than the lead core counterpart. Needless to say, both are important for barrier penetration.
I would be very interested to see a M2-AP style core inside of a 125 grain 6.5 MM bullet and the effect vs. 3/8" AR500 plate, concrete, and ballistic gel. And whatever combination of the above.
7.62 / 6.5 / 5.56 vs concrete block - QuadCam - 09-12-2011
slightly off topic, but has anyone seen any videos similar to this but for "home defense." I would love to see a video of how various calibers and various projectiles deal with 2 layers of drywall with a 3.5 inch airgap between them. Everyone is always concerned about overpenetrating interior walls of a home. I'd really like to see something like that.
7.62 / 6.5 / 5.56 vs concrete block - stanc - 09-12-2011
Have you checked youtube?
I haven't bothered, because everything I've read says that two layers of drywall will barely slow a centerfire rifle or handgun bullet of any caliber.
7.62 / 6.5 / 5.56 vs concrete block - stanc - 09-12-2011
mtn_shooter Wrote:I would be very interested to see a M2-AP style core inside of a 125 grain 6.5 MM bullet and the effect vs. 3/8" AR500 plate, concrete, and ballistic gel.IIRC, bwaites tested such a 6.5 AP load against steel plate, and performance was not very good. I think it's discussed in a thread in the Military sub-forum.
7.62 / 6.5 / 5.56 vs concrete block - WillD - 09-12-2011
Here's a site using various calibers and test mediums.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/theboxotruth.htm
Cheers, Will
7.62 / 6.5 / 5.56 vs concrete block - mtn_shooter - 09-13-2011
QuadCam Wrote:slightly off topic, but has anyone seen any videos similar to this but for "home defense." I would love to see a video of how various calibers and various projectiles deal with 2 layers of drywall with a 3.5 inch airgap between them. Everyone is always concerned about overpenetrating interior walls of a home. I'd really like to see something like that.
.22lr will punch straight through that. I've done it in old abandon houses in the middle of no where in NW kansas (On private land, with the land owner, he didn't care etc...).
7.62 / 6.5 / 5.56 vs concrete block - LRRPF52 - 09-13-2011
.22LR, shotgun pellets, hollow points, FMJ's, or pretty much any piece of metal going over 800 fps will sail through dry wall, insulation, wiring, joists, framework, windows and the thin, weak surrounding of your home. It makes shot placement that much more important when in an urbanized area with your neighbors asleep next door, or their kids playing nearby. I've shot stacked phone books in a house a few times with .380 Ranger SXT's & .40 S&W's for a side-by-side comparison, and they eventually cut through the books, went through furniture, and through one layer of dry wall, but didn't exit the real brick exterior.
When it comes to high-power rifle cartridges, where you're most likely looking at velocities well over 2000 fps, you're going to have a lot of through-&-through with typical construction mediums, especially with bullets that have more mass. There is a dual duty to protect your life, your family's, and your neighbors' lives by making very true shot placement.