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To Be an American - Nukes - 01-25-2015
So, it seems that the forum is now open for political and religious discussion... I'll keep this light.
We looked at running a food truck. To do so we needed 13, count 'em, 13 permissions for the "freedom" to work... and that is just the tip of the iceberg... but I promised to keep this post light.
To Be an American - montana - 01-25-2015
Nukes Wrote:So, it seems that the forum is now open for political and religious discussion... I'll keep this light.
We looked at running a food truck. To do so we needed 13, count 'em, 13 permissions for the "freedom" to work... and that is just the tip of the iceberg... but I promised to keep this post light.
Yup, the slippery slide from citizen to subject at its worst. Then they wonder why we resist surrendering our gun rights to our fearless leaders!
To Be an American - LRRPF52 - 01-25-2015
The whole point of posting the video in the OP was to bring awareness to veteran's issues, not open up some debate about politics or religion.
I posted it in the military section, which turned into something other than intended, so I moved it to 2A.
This is about veteran's perspectives on freedom, putting sacrifice into perspective. It was not meant to elicit a political or religious debate. Aside from politics, a lot of families have made huge sacrifices, and I thought it would be meaningful to bring attention to it.
To Be an American - Nukes - 01-25-2015
LRRPF52 Wrote:...This is about veteran's perspectives on freedom....
Some veterans' perspectives. There are other veterans' perspectives and there are other non-veterans' perspectives. To post one perspective is to invite those other perspectives on freedom—unless there is a double-standard here.
For decades I have given very good care of veterans. My heart goes out to them and, as our up-to-now private discussion mentioned, I have been working towards providing veterans the hyperbaric oxygen care that you recently recommended. I believe in it. My care for veterans is not just lip service. I understand your perspective, but there are other perspectives.
To promote one perspective while disallowing other perspectives strays too close to a not-at-all-free "Some animals are more equal than others."
I want to emphasize this—Veterans have been treated shamefully and I do my best to change that.
In view of the published rules, if they really are the rules, I would like all to stay away from politics. Shall we keep it light now?
To Be an American - Michael - 01-25-2015
I guess I took something different from the video...that those who serve in the military sacrifice/suspend a lot of the liberties that they defend . In this nation, especially those liberties guaranteed in the Bill of Rights. That those who serve sometimes don't know what the life of the private citizen is drastically different than their own until they leave the military. From spending a lot of time working with other nation's military, this view seems to cross international boundaries and is not necessarily a solely American phenomenon.
To Be an American - Heywood - 01-26-2015
Klem Wrote:Arguing about gun ownership on a gun forum is one thing. Tying it to religion is another. By all means believe in 'God' and your country, but don't get upset if I yawn loudly and glaze-over while you proselytise. And if you don't get too worked up with my disdain at your arrogance then I promise not to spout the belief systems in my country as if they are an exemplar of living. 'Founding Fathers' (did they all have kids?), Religious deities handing-out rights to humans...[Yawn]. The legislated freedom to carry (certain types of) gun because there is less communal trust in your own government after a civil war...In an individualistic society that celebrates the rights of individuals over the group.
While I own several I don't feel the need to carry a gun for protection where I live. Yet I am careful and respectful enough not to suggest my country is better than anyone else's. It's just a different way a society has chosen to live.
I hear what you are saying, as an agnostic I personally believe that all the English speeking countries of the world would be much better off if they did not believe their rights came from something bigger than their betters. The western world would be much better off without the Renaissance, the Magna Carta and the Constitution. I'm just glad they didn't try their hand at starting hospitals or universities with all those crazy beliefes in their head.
To Be an American - Klem - 01-26-2015
Starting a thread about veteran's rights in (North) America, punctuated by a video sponsored by commercial enterprise is a recipe for opinion. Related to veterans rights is government and to some on the forum government is linked to religion. A recipe for contentious opinion.
I'd prefer to talk about the 6.5mm Grendel on a site called '6.5 Grendel Forum'.
To Be an American - JASmith - 01-26-2015
cory Wrote:...An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.
Wow! That is the sound bite of sound bites supporting the 2A debate!
It captures both the essence and imples all the details underlying the second amendment!
Well said!!!!
To Be an American - Drift - 01-26-2015
Klem (with respect) what you are missing here is this is the "Room 2A" area of the Grendel forum. This area is a place where people can go to talk about the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution of the United States. Sure you you'd prefer talk about the 6.5 Grendel, thats why there are so many other threads on the site so that you can do just that. Besides, in past years with winter in full swing in North
America and little American shooting going on, little Grendel data is obtained/offered by non American Grendel shooters so the Grendel site kinda slows down around SHOT time, and stay slow till about April.
To Be an American - cory - 01-26-2015
Heywood Wrote:I hear what you are saying, as an agnostic I personally believe that all the English speeking countries of the world would be much better off if they did not believe their rights came from something bigger than their betters. The western world would be much better off without the Renaissance, the Magna Carta and the Constitution. I'm just glad they didn't try their hand at starting hospitals or universities with all those crazy beliefes in their head.
I'm not sure if this should be taken in jest or not. :?
To Be an American - bwaites - 01-26-2015
Klem Wrote:Starting a thread about veteran's rights in (North) America, punctuated by a video sponsored by commercial enterprise is a recipe for opinion. Related to veterans rights is government and to some on the forum government is linked to religion. A recipe for contentious opinion.
I'd prefer to talk about the 6.5mm Grendel on a site called '6.5 Grendel Forum'.
Then I invite you to do so. There is no obligation to venture into the 2A section of the Forum. Its not a necessity in any way. This section was requested by a multitude of members and was opened by the owner to discuss 2A issues in the United States. As the 2A doesn't apply in other countries, there is no reason to visit it.
In this case a moderator decided to post something interesting to him, and it happened to most closely fit in this section. Members are free to come and see what is here, but don't need to tarry if they are offended, as some appear to be.
The simple truth is that the United States was founded by a group who deeply believed in God, Liberty, and the individual right to self determination. However, they also believed in the individual right to NOT believe in those things, and constructed a government that protected the rights of all, regardless of belief.
No other country was willng to allow those at the time, and few do today. Many of us believe that those rights are only protected with and by the right to keep and bear arms, and the loss of that right has been found. time and again, to rapidly lead to the loss of the most basic of human rights.
Believe in God, or don't, but the greatest nation in human history was founded by those who did, and continues to be protected by those who do. Without those men, much of Europe would be speaking German or Russian, and much of the rest of the world would be speaking Japanese.
To Be an American - Heywood - 01-26-2015
cory Wrote:I'm not sure if this should be taken in jest or not. :?
Yes. I forgot to push the sarc. button.
I was trying to point out that most agnostics, atheist or anti-theists conveniently forget, or at the least take for granted, that many of the the greatest institutions in western civilization have Christianaity as their founding and guiding principal. And act shocked offended or put upon when people still practice those beliefes as Christians do, or on my case, celebrate them and defend them in my own way.
I am really an agnostic, though, I wish I wasn't.
To Be an American - Klem - 01-26-2015
bwaites Wrote:Then I invite you to do so. There is no obligation to venture into the 2A section of the Forum. Its not a necessity in any way. This section was requested by a multitude of members and was opened by the owner to discuss 2A issues in the United States. As the 2A doesn't apply in other countries, there is no reason to visit it.
In this case a moderator decided to post something interesting to him, and it happened to most closely fit in this section. Members are free to come and see what is here, but don't need to tarry if they are offended, as some appear to be.
The simple truth is that the United States was founded by a group who deeply believed in God, Liberty, and the individual right to self determination. However, they also believed in the individual right to NOT believe in those things, and constructed a government that protected the rights of all, regardless of belief.
No other country was willng to allow those at the time, and few do today. Many of us believe that those rights are only protected with and by the right to keep and bear arms, and the loss of that right has been found. time and again, to rapidly lead to the loss of the most basic of human rights.
Believe in God, or don't, but the greatest nation in human history was founded by those who did, and continues to be protected by those who do. Without those men, much of Europe would be speaking German or Russian, and much of the rest of the world would be speaking Japanese.
"The greatest nation in human history..." I'd like to drop this discussion but the sheer arrogance of implying an opinion is axiomatic begs a response. Religion and politics. Throw in a hefty spoonful of ethnocentricity and you get a critical mass of disquiet.
My understanding of the role of Moderator is akin to an umpire - to remain neutral. To calm and control the waters, not provoke disquiet.
For the record this discussion did not start in 2A.
To Be an American - bwaites - 01-26-2015
It may not have started 2A, but it is there now. As for my being a moderator, I was a member long before I was a moderator. I still retain my rights to express my opinion and and to express truth. IF I or any moderator were required to waive those rights, there would be no moderators, for in and of itself that implies censorship.
There was no religion expressed in my post, only a simple explanation of the Founding Fathers beliefs in Christianity, or, if you wish, Judeo-Christianity. Religion in this context is not a simple belief in God, but a value set and customs associated with that belief. It is man made, and the Founding Fathers had multiple different religious backgrounds, including Methodism, Lutheranism, Catholic, Huguenot, Congregationalist, Episcopalian/Anglican, Presbyterian, Calvinist, Unitarian, and Quakers, as well as Dutch/German Reformed. I find it interesting that someone with no belief in God is so offended by others belief in a Supreme Being. No one is implying or requiring that you should so believe.
Sorry if you don't share my beliefs about the greatest nation in history, but no other nation in history has spent so much blood for the lives and freedoms of people in other countries, and asked so little in return. Indeed, all America has asked for the lives of our fallen is a place to bury them in the countries where they have fallen.
Once again, you are not required to visit the 2A forum to be a good member of the Grendel Forum, it was established at the request of many members to allow a place for discussion of 2A issues, and since they don't pertain in your situation, there really isn't any need for you to visit here. You are welcome to do so, but with the understanding that this section will be, obviously, "ethnocentric" though the word does not mean what you think it means. There is no such thing as applied to United States citizens as a group, simply because we are so multi-ethnic! We have a dominant language, English, and even that is changing, but when it comes to any other divider; race, religion, culture, or custom we are widely divergent. Calling US citizens ethnocentric is laughable. If you are referring to our patriotic bent, regardless of ethnic background, it is that patriotic bent that has allowed the US to defend freedom from "halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli" as one of our military hymns so proudly claims! Please do not interpret that as a belief that the US has always been right in its interventions, for we are a nation led by men with various egos and rationales, not all of which have been pure at times. The US has made mistakes, but has tried to correct those mistakes where possible, eventually.
So, once again, I invite you to remain in the "technical" areas of the forum, avoiding those areas that might offend your sensibilities.
To Be an American - cory - 01-26-2015
Well said Bwaites!
To Be an American - Nukes - 01-26-2015
So, if I understand both moderators, there is no rule against promoting charities that have nothing to do with the 2A and no rule against discussing politics and religion in the 2A section. It is OK to discuss "interesting" items, including the Deism (not Christianity) of many of the Founders (for example, Jefferson who crossed out Jesus' miracles from his copy of the Bible) as well as the contradiction in terms such as "Judeo-Christianity."
“The thesis of this book is that Judaism and Christianity do not form a common tradition, ‘the Judeo-Christian tradition.’ They are not compatible ... only now, for reasons of politics and sociology, have some representatives of Judaism maintained otherwise....”
Jews and Christians: the myth of a common tradition, Rabbi Jacob Neusner, ISBN 1-586841-08-4, Binghamton NY: Classics in Judaic Studies
http://books.google.no/books?id=qDdoHV9sPsAC&lpg=PP1&dq=Jews%20and%20Christians%3A%20the%20myth%20of%20a%20common%20tradition&hl=no&pg=PR11#v=onepage&q&f=false
See also: Don Curzio Nitoglia, The "Judeo-Christian" Lie
http://www.doncurzionitoglia.com/menzogna_del_giudeocristianesimo.htm
a Google translation: http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.doncurzionitoglia.com%2Fmenzogna_del_giudeocristianesimo.htm
http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/2011/11/don-curzio-nitoglia-judeo-christian-lie.html
As for "beliefs about the greatest nation in history," the souls lost, the innocent civilian men, women, and children lost, in Wounded Knee, Sherman's March, Dresden, Nagasaki, Hiroshima, Eisenhower's post-war death camps, My Lai, and the Middle East are likely to have a dissenting opinion on what makes a nation great. Even some veterans have a dissenting opinion about what makes a nation great.
Please, no double standards here. Moderators brought these things up, so we should be free to discuss the matters.
To Be an American - bwaites - 01-26-2015
Nukes Wrote:So, if I understand both moderators, there is no rule against promoting charities that have nothing to do with the 2A and no rule against discussing politics and religion in the 2A section. It is OK to discuss "interesting" items, including the Deism (not Christianity) of many of the Founders (for example, Jefferson who crossed out Jesus' miracles from his copy of the Bible) as well as the contradiction in terms such as "Judeo-Christianity."
“The thesis of this book is that Judaism and Christianity do not form a common tradition, ‘the Judeo-Christian tradition.’ They are not compatible ... only now, for reasons of politics and sociology, have some representatives of Judaism maintained otherwise....”
Jews and Christians: the myth of a common tradition, Rabbi Jacob Neusner, ISBN 1-586841-08-4, Binghamton NY: Classics in Judaic Studies
http://books.google.no/books?id=qDdoHV9sPsAC&lpg=PP1&dq=Jews%20and%20Christians%3A%20the%20myth%20of%20a%20common%20tradition&hl=no&pg=PR11#v=onepage&q&f=false
See also: Don Curzio Nitoglia: The "Judeo-Christian" Lie
http://www.doncurzionitoglia.com/menzogna_del_giudeocristianesimo.htm
a Google translation: http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.doncurzionitoglia.com%2Fmenzogna_del_giudeocristianesimo.htm
http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/2011/11/don-curzio-nitoglia-judeo-christian-lie.html
Please, no double standards here. Moderators brought these things up, so we should be free to discuss the matters.
Actually, we did not, you did. There is huge difference in pointing out the Founding Fathers belief in God and a Judeo-Christian belief system, which is widely accepted as the founding basis for our Declaration of Independence and Counstitution, and proposing radical viewpoints on that belief system. We will NOT be having another issue with you on this. You have been warned multiple times about trolling this very issue. You have been suspended for trolling this issue. Further discussion on your part will result in banning.
To Be an American - Nukes - 01-26-2015
Parse carefully.
A moderator, LRRPF52, posted a video promoting a charity that had nothing to do with the Second Amendment. He admitted that.
Not until page 3 did I say anything. I noted the political and religious character of the discussion. I mentioned our food truck "freedom." There was no intervention to halt the rule violation.
When the moderator, LRRPF52, admitted that his post really didn't fit in any allowable category, he justified it by claiming the privilege of "veteran's [sic] opinion."
I then pointed out that, even though I personally work for veterans, there are other opinions and that posting one opinion invites other opinions. I mentioned the rule a second time. There was no intervention to halt the rule violation.
Then you, BWaites, moderator, went on about "Christianity" and "Judeo-Christianity" and the "greatest nation in history"—naked politics and religion. There was no intervention to halt the rule violation.
You and LRRPF52 opened the door. I "trolled" nothing. You and LRRPF52 ignored and violated the rule.
So, be honest with yourself, Bill. You ignored the rule as long as you agreed with the politics and religion. You intervened only when you disagreed with the politics and religion. "Some animals are more equal than others."
To Be an American - bwaites - 01-26-2015
Nukes Wrote:Parse carefully.
A moderator, LRRPF52, posted a video promoting a charity that had nothing to do with the Second Amendment. He admitted that.
Not until page 3 did I say anything. I noted the political and religious character of the discussion. I mentioned our food truck "freedom." There was no intervention to halt the rule violation.
When the moderator, LRRPF52, admitted that his post really didn't fit in any allowable category, he justified it by claiming the privilege of "veteran's [sic] opinion."
I then pointed out that, even though I personally work for veterans, there are other opinions and that posting one opinion invites other opinions. I mentioned the rule a second time. There was no intervention to halt the rule violation.
Then you, BWaites, moderator, went on about "Christianity" and "Judeo-Christianity" and the "greatest nation in history"—naked politics and religion. There was no intervention to halt the rule violation.
You and LRRPF52 opened the door. I "trolled" nothing. You and LRRPF52 ignored and violated the rule.
So, be honest with yourself, Bill. You ignored the rule as long as you agreed with the politics and religion. You intervened only when you disagreed with the politics and religion. "Some animals are more equal than others."
Be honest with yourself, what part of "further discussion on your part will result in banning" do you not understand?
To Be an American - bwaites - 01-26-2015
Nukes Wrote:Parse carefully.
A moderator, LRRPF52, posted a video promoting a charity that had nothing to do with the Second Amendment. He admitted that.
Like members, moderators have wide disgression in what they post. When members do so, moderators will often move it to a more appropriate forum. LRRPF52 chose to do so. Does it fit the strict rules, no, but we have thousands of post that don't.
Not until page 3 did I say anything. I noted the political and religious character of the discussion. I mentioned our food truck "freedom." There was no intervention to halt the rule violation.
Once again, we give members wide latitude, otherwise the board would be nothing more than recipes of what worked for what gun.
When the moderator, LRRPF52, admitted that his post really didn't fit in any allowable category, he justified it by claiming the privilege of "veteran's [sic] opinion."
I then pointed out that, even though I personally work for veterans, there are other opinions and that posting one opinion invites other opinions. I mentioned the rule a second time. There was no intervention to halt the rule violation.
And once again, I and the other mods left it alone. The thread had wandered a bit off topic, but that "wide latitude" still was in effect.
Then you, BWaites, moderator, went on about "Christianity" and "Judeo-Christianity" and the "greatest nation in history"—naked politics and religion. There was no intervention to halt the rule violation.
My first post was on the 4th page, I had neither read the posts or watched the video prior to that.(I still haven't found the time to watch it.) But I was receiving multiple PM's and emails about the thread so I came to read it at that point.
You and LRRPF52 opened the door. I "trolled" nothing. You and LRRPF52 ignored and violated the rule.
We "opened the door to more of your anti-jewish pap? Really? By simply mentioning that the Founding Fathers relied on a belief in Christian principles, or perhaps Judeo-Christian principles? REALLY? And I opened the door to politics by stating that the United States was the greatest nation in history? REALLY?
So, be honest with yourself, Bill. You ignored the rule as long as you agreed with the politics and religion. You intervened only when you disagreed with the politics and religion. "Some animals are more equal than others."
I'll be honest with you, I had great hopes that you would avoid the 2A part of the forum, because you obviously have deep feelings and beliefs that are both contradictory to many here, and needless on this forum.
You have great value as a member when you stick to the technical forums, and your experience there has been helpful. But you cannot seem to follow any direction, and you seem to believe that this is some debate. Its not, this is a privately owned forum, where the owner, and by extension, the moderators, do as they see fit to maintain decorum. You have repeatedly violated that decorum, even while being asked not to do so. You leave me no options.