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+--- Thread: Stoner 63- most controlable Full auto rifle ? (/showthread.php?tid=8744)
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Stoner 63- most controlable Full auto rifle ? - LRRPF52 - 12-19-2014
Regardless of what can be seen in videos, I can tell you from personal experience that shooting a constant recoil system on full auto is night and day from a multiple impulse design. You can write your name if there's enough ammo.
The Suomi Kp31 SMG is constant recoil, designed in the 1930's.
Stoner 63- most controlable Full auto rifle ? - stanc - 12-19-2014
I wonder how much of the StG44 controllability is due to the constant-recoil design, and how much to the combination of a very heavy weapon and low-power cartridge?
Stoner 63- most controlable Full auto rifle ? - montana - 12-19-2014
stanc Wrote:I wonder how much of the StG44 controllability is due to the constant-recoil design, and how much to the combination of a very heavy weapon and low-power cartridge?
I have a full auto Galil ARM in 5.56 that is heavier than the STG44 and it isn't as controllable as my M-16 from the shoulder. Keep on trying , I'm dug in .
Stoner 63- most controlable Full auto rifle ? - stanc - 12-19-2014
montana Wrote:I have a full auto Galil ARM in 5.56 that is heavier than the STG44 and it isn't as controllable as my M-16 from the shoulder. Keep on trying , I'm dug in .Okay, try this. A 6.5 Grendel M4 with 10.5" barrel ought to have about the same muzzle velocity with 123gr ammo as the StG44 with 125gr 7.92 Kurz ammo.
Add on enough gadgets to the Grendel to make its weight equal to that of the Sturmgewehr, and do a side-by-side controllability test.
If the StG44's constant recoil really makes a significant difference, it ought to be noticeable.
Stoner 63- most controlable Full auto rifle ? - montana - 12-19-2014
stanc Wrote:Okay, try this. A 6.5 Grendel M4 with 10.5" barrel ought to have about the same muzzle velocity with 123gr ammo as the StG44 with 125gr 7.92 Kurz ammo.
Add on enough gadgets to the Grendel to make its weight equal to that of the Sturmgewehr, and do a side-by-side controllability test.
If the StG44's constant recoil really makes a significant difference, it ought to be noticeable.
The M4"M-16" is a very controllable action when set up with a DI system compared to the Kalashnikov and the STG-44 which both use a long stroke gas piston. There is a big difference between the DI and gas piston when both are put in the AR platform which is why I switched back to the DI system in most of my rifles. This is why the constant recoil works so well. The STG-44 is comparable to the Galil ARM "AKA Kalashnikov" in weight and function yet the STG-44 is far superior because it was designed with constant recoil. The impulse of the recoil is much more manageable when constant recoil is applied. The German MP-40 is far superior when compared to the Sten SMG which I have shot both off. It may not look like it on videos but if you shot both types you would be very impressed with the difference.
Stoner 63- most controlable Full auto rifle ? - LRRPF52 - 12-20-2014
The balance of the MP44 is also one of the best, even when compared to modern assault rifles. The human interface with the MP44 is superb, except for the handguard. The cheek to comb and sight height is perfect, and the grip and controls feel great. Even though it's heavier, it feels more comfortable to carry than an AK any day.
Stoner 63- most controlable Full auto rifle ? - stanc - 12-20-2014
montana Wrote:There is a big difference between the DI and gas piston when both are put in the AR platform which is why I switched back to the DI system in most of my rifles. This is why the constant recoil works so well.:confused: Sorry, but I don't see the correlation between those two sentences.
Quote:The STG-44 is comparable to the Galil ARM "AKA Kalashnikov" in weight and function yet the STG-44 is far superior because it was designed with constant recoil. The impulse of the recoil is much more manageable when constant recoil is applied. It may not look like it on videos but if you shot both types you would be very impressed with the difference.Perhaps. I suppose I'll never be able to experience it for myself, though.
Stoner 63- most controlable Full auto rifle ? - stanc - 12-20-2014
LRRPF52 Wrote:The balance of the MP44 is also one of the best, even when compared to modern assault rifles. The human interface with the MP44 is superb, except for the handguard. The cheek to comb and sight height is perfect, and the grip and controls feel great.I fully agree. About 20 years ago I had an MP44 in my hot little hands for awhile. I'd rate it perhaps second only in fit, feel, and handling to my M1AE2.
Stoner 63- most controlable Full auto rifle ? - montana - 12-20-2014
stanc Wrote::confused: Sorry, but I don't see the correlation between those two sentences.
Perhaps. I suppose I'll never be able to experience it for myself, though.
The correlation is that even though the STG-44 has a gas piston which creates a sharper recoil than a DI system, the STG-44 still has excellent recoil management when constant recoil is designed in it.
Stoner 63- most controlable Full auto rifle ? - txgunner00 - 12-21-2014
stanc Wrote:Stoner 63 -- so controllable even a child can shoot it.
(Check out the targets at the end of the video. :eek: )
[video=youtube;erujkSM-HmY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erujkSM-HmY[/video]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erujkSM-HmY
I saw that kid shooting that gun at a New Years eve machine gun shoot at that range in either 2006 or 2007. Pretty cool.
edit- I dug around on my computer and found pictures of the kid but no good views of the gun. It was in Feb 2007. I think the new years eve shoot got rained out that year and this was the make up day. Pretty sweet gun. Far more controllable than the micro uzi that was also there.
Stoner 63- most controlable Full auto rifle ? - montana - 07-12-2015
Larry Vickers agrees with my first impression of the Stoner weapon system. http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/07/11/larry-vickers-shoots-the-stoner-63/
Stoner 63- most controlable Full auto rifle ? - BluntForceTrauma - 07-13-2015
M, cool video. That's why I'm so hot and bothered for constant recoil in an assault rifle. I just need a CNC machine and a million dollars. . . .
Stoner 63- most controlable Full auto rifle ? - LRRPF52 - 07-13-2015
Constant recoil principle, something pioneered by high European engineering in no later than the 1930's, for which many attribute to the Germans.
There were several constant recoil SMG designs floating around in the interim period between the Great War and WWII, one of which culminated in the Suomi Kp31 9mm SMG, used by the Finns with brutal effectiveness against the Russians in the Winter War and Continuation War.
Stoner 63- most controlable Full auto rifle ? - BluntForceTrauma - 07-14-2015
Cool info, Paul, didn't know the Suomi used CR.
Stoner 63- most controlable Full auto rifle ? - LRRPF52 - 07-14-2015
The Suomi doesn't move when you shoot it. You can write your name with it. With a 72rd drum, it became a close support weapon for the Finns.
It uses vacuum effect on the bolt, a strong recoil spring, and weight to achieve balanced recoil.
The m/45 "Swedish K" Karl Gustav 9mm SMG is the same way, only much lighter than the Kp31 at just a little over 7lbs, whereas the Kp31 weighs over 10lbs.
The Swedes made a copy of the Kp31, but with a reduced weight receiver tube, shorter barrel, higher comb angle on the stock, and a more simple rear sight. My late friend had one. Look center row, 3rd SMG down:
![[Image: WWIIMG044.jpg]](http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j422/LRRPF52/WWIIMG044.jpg)
Left Column, from top to bottom:
Mp38 Schmeisser
Mp40
Mp41
Middle:
Thompson .45 ACP SMG
Suomi Kp31 9mm
Swedish Kpist m/39
Suomi Kp m/44 SMG 9mm
Right Column:
Soviet PPSh-41 SMG 7.62x25
PPS-43
Chicom PPS-43
PPS-43
SVT-38 below it. He also had an SVT-40, among other things. You can see quite a few other MG's in the room, but there were way more.
Stoner 63- most controlable Full auto rifle ? - montana - 07-14-2015
A beautiful collection of military firearms. I have always been fascinated with old and new weapons of conflict. Other than the weight I have heard only the highest and positive reviews of the Suomi SMG. I have never had the opportunity to hold let alone fire one of these magnificent SMG's but rely on those who have. I would also love to try the PPS-43 SMG. Once again a beautiful collection of military history. Thank's for sharing.
Stoner 63- most controlable Full auto rifle ? - LRRPF52 - 07-15-2015
The Suomi is fun to shoot for sure. I would love to have a Stoner 63 much more though.
![[Image: 24LahdessaPauliSuomi1_zps16668884.jpg]](http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j422/LRRPF52/Suomessa/24LahdessaPauliSuomi1_zps16668884.jpg)