Is 6.5 Grendel the New 300 Blackout?

Is 6.5 Grendel the New 300 Blackout? - Printable Version

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Is 6.5 Grendel the New 300 Blackout? - Variable - 02-27-2014

JASmith Wrote:Variable,

I like the images -- those heavies have used up all of the magazine length!

Thanks, those are some old pics I had posted on the old board. I haven't messed with the subs for a good while. Way back then I wondered if they'd actually chamber at that length, but they did just fine. I had one bunch that didn't, but it turns out I hadn't bumped the shoulder back far enough on that batch of brass. D'oh! <Smacks head>:o

Is 6.5 Grendel the New 300 Blackout? - mongoosesnipe - 02-27-2014

Variable Wrote:Yeah, even rabbits make a fairly loud "pop" sound when you hit them with a 40 grain CCI subsonic HP.

I was interested in a 300 Blackout for a while, but I've decided to deliver 230gr. HPs via a different route for now.

A fifty yard head shot is pretty easy, and I'll see how far it'll still hold that this summer hopefully. If the ATF would quit dinking around with my paperwork, I could start testing it out more seriously. Running it without a can isn't as fun. I want my .45 can released from purgatory! A Blackout would do 230grs. more quietly perhaps, but doesn't fit into a holster too well.LOL

I might still get a .300 someday, but I'm in no hurry yet.

ETA: I'd still like to see at least a 180 grain 6.5 bullet. My 10.5" stabilizes the 160's easy, I just never found a load that'd cycle with a barrel that short. I'd like to see how heavy I could go. A 180 or heavier bullet (if my tube would stabilize it) would give me a better chance to find a cycling load with a normal gas block. I'd rather try a heavier bullet before potentially wasting time and money on expensive gas setups that might not solve the problem for me (while staying good at normal supersonic loads).

The 40gr cci hp subsonic is my go to load in the 22 last time I zeroed it I got five shot group I could cover with a dime at 65 yards, I was running a 10.5" blackout pistol that cycled everything I threw at it with the pistol length gas system I actual had issue with action opening a little I ended up finding a good load with 4227 I got bored with it and took it apart I would like to put a bolt action blackout together

Is 6.5 Grendel the New 300 Blackout? - Tedward - 02-27-2014

Variable Wrote:You either have a Grendel chamber or you don't. Period.

Also: The Grendel chamber handles the heaviest bullets currently manufactured just fine as is for subsonic use.

I am not trying to stir anything up but have a question. If that long throat looking heavy projectile, great by the way, will chamber in the Grendel, where is the compound throat I see in the SAAMI drawing on the "sticky". I could see it fitting in the LBC.264 freebore throat but with the compounded throat angle of the Grendel it seems as if it would hit and have to be a straight throat to let that long projectile fit.

Is 6.5 Grendel the New 300 Blackout? - Variable - 02-27-2014

Nope, they chamber fine just as pictured, and I have real Grendel chambers in all three of my rifles: An AA 19.5" (with early-ish LW made barrel), a 14.5" Sabre, and a 10.5" AA (with Sabre made barrel). The Hornady 160s look extremely blunt, but they do have some taper. Enough that they chamber just fine.

They chamber in all my Grendel chambers along with Hornady Amaxs, Wolf MPTs, and everything else factory I ever stuffed in them. That's why I get so pissy about "other" Grendel chambers. I don't work for AA, don't carry their water, and receive nothing from them. I do appreciate the fact that Bill A. is a pretty savvy boomstick designer, and all three of my Grendels are made right.

There's honestly zero damned excuse for any supposed Grendel not to have an actual Grendel chamber these days. If people are having trouble, then it's because their stuff isn't made right. Period. Mine are made right with real Grendel chambers, real Grendel bolts, etc. They have run for thousands of rounds with zero drama, and the only breakage I've ever had was one extractor. That was in my 10.5", which I was firing suppressed and full auto. I ran that gun very filthy and dry, and I rather imagine that contributed to the breakage. I don't run sissy loads either. The only mild loads my guns have ever seen are the subs and the Wolf MPT. My handloads are hot, and the Hornady Amax stuff is warm.
[Image: Gren3.jpg]

Of course, even the Wolf MPT can be made to behave extremely hot if you intentionally bake your ammo on the dashboard in direct sunlight with a black magazine in the dead of summer..... Big Grin

Still wasn't an issue, and no breakage occured. Big Grin

Bottom line--- If someone has issues with a Grendel, it's because something isn't made right, it sure as hell isn't the design. There is ZERO reason to change it, and it really pisses me off seeing people trying to turn this into another 6.8 style fiasco when the whole thing is B.S. to begin with. The true Grendel chamber is proper. I won't own one that isn't, and I think it's foolish to support any that aren't. It just supports confusion and B.S. while muddying up folks understanding of what to expect. It doesn't cost manufacturers anything more to do it right chamber dimension-wise. If people would hold manufacturers to the fire on dimensions and specs, they wouldn't try to pull this crap.

Is 6.5 Grendel the New 300 Blackout? - Tedward - 02-27-2014

OK, point taken. thanks.

Is 6.5 Grendel the New 300 Blackout? - JASmith - 02-27-2014

The bullets may be manufactured with bore-riding noses like some very long cast bullets.

A slightly sub .256" diameter nose would not care about throat detials.

I don't have any Hornady 160 gr bullets to measure, and am waiting for Midway to ship my order of Naturalis, so I can't personally verify.

Is 6.5 Grendel the New 300 Blackout? - Variable - 02-27-2014

Tedward Wrote:OK, point taken. thanks.

Your welcome, and thank you for prompting me to get the rant off my chest.LOL I've been biting my lip and holding my breath for days trying not to join the dogpile, but frankly it's the truth, and not saying it was killing me.

When it comes to non-spec dimensions the Grendel Hoard needs to repeat after me, and just say: NO!!!

Is 6.5 Grendel the New 300 Blackout? - montana - 02-27-2014

Variable Wrote:Your welcome, and thank you for prompting me to get the rant off my chest.LOL I've been biting my lip and holding my breath for days trying not to join the dogpile, but frankly it's the truth, and not saying it was killing me.

When it comes to non-spec dimensions the Grendel Hoard needs to repeat after me, and just say: NO!!!

I bet you feel a lot better now, I know I do. Stress can be toxic. Smile

Is 6.5 Grendel the New 300 Blackout? - pinzgauer - 02-28-2014

mongoosesnipe Wrote:Considering the blackout has been around for 20 some years as the 300 whisper and everyone seems to forget when looking at it that the blackout is not realy designed to compete with any of the mid range rifle cartidges out there, it was designed to compete with the 9mm in the form of a suppresed ar15 firing a 240+ grain bullets vs mp5sd and the same gun can fire a lighter supersonic bullet aprochang the performance of the 7.62x39 but that part has become the pivotal marketing point for selling it

Many don't know or forget your point. Early on "RSilvers" who has self identified as the "designer" of the Blackout (huh?) stated that if you like Grendel downrange performance you won't like 300 Blackout. And vice versa for Subsonic. IE: the cartridges were optimized in two radically different directions. Which I agree with his reasonable assessment.

Since moving to Remington the tone has shifted far more into the one cartridge to "do it all" space.

Is 6.5 Grendel the New 300 Blackout? - Klem - 02-28-2014

Ah yes, Mr 'RSilvers'. He may not have designed the calibre but he certainly believes in it like a religion. Start mentioning its flaws and prepare to be flamed like a sub-continental religious zealot. He was on that Blackout forum 24/7 it seemed, defending it and protecting it. Monopolizing many conversations with technical mantra. I am guessing his livelihood was in some way connected with the marketing of the caliber.

Let's face it, every caliber has good and bad points. In trying to be all things it ends up being, 'Jack of all trades master of none'. Even its raison d'etre, the ability to fire suppressed heavy 30cal form a cycling AR is loud compared to other platforms/calibres.

It's all down to the relationship between its peak, port, and muzzle pressures. 30cal drops from peak pressure much quicker than smaller diameter barrels (Grendel and 5.56). This means it goes from peak pressure to under-gassed much quicker. But, to cycle an AR you need at least 5,000lbs at the port. So with subsonic, having enough pressure at the port to cycle leaves you with higher than preferred muzzle pressures. And that means sound. Suppressed subsonic is louder than a 9mm. Or, you can load equivalent to 9mm but not have enough pressure to cycle. Take your pick; loud cycling subsonic or quiet single-shot-only. Plus, carry the weight of 308 ammo in your pouches for no more ability to kill than a .223. After a while the marketing wears off and you are left with reality.

The only similarity between the Blackout and the Grendel is that they are both designed to use the same AR platform. Comparing them beyond that is pointless.

Is 6.5 Grendel the New 300 Blackout? - Roguer - 02-28-2014

Klem Wrote:Ah yes, Mr 'RSilvers'. He may not have designed the calibre but he certainly believes in it like a religion. Start mentioning its flaws and prepare to be flamed like a sub-continental religious zealot. He was on that Blackout forum 24/7 it seemed, defending it and protecting it. Monopolizing many conversations with technical mantra. I am guessing his livelihood was in some way connected with the marketing of the caliber.

Let's face it, every caliber has good and bad points. In trying to be all things it ends up being, 'Jack of all trades master of none'. Even its raison d'etre, the ability to fire suppressed heavy 30cal form a cycling AR is loud compared to other platforms/calibres.

It's all down to the relationship between its peak, port, and muzzle pressures. 30cal drops from peak pressure much quicker than smaller diameter barrels (Grendel and 5.56). This means it goes from peak pressure to under-gassed much quicker. But, to cycle an AR you need at least 5,000lbs at the port. So with subsonic, having enough pressure at the port to cycle leaves you with higher than preferred muzzle pressures. And that means sound. Suppressed subsonic is louder than a 9mm. Or, you can load equivalent to 9mm but not have enough pressure to cycle. Take your pick; loud cycling subsonic or quiet single-shot-only. Plus, carry the weight of 308 ammo in your pouches for no more ability to kill than a .223. After a while the marketing wears off and you are left with reality.

The only similarity between the Blackout and the Grendel is that they are both designed to use the same AR platform. Comparing them beyond that is pointless.

This! ^^^

Klem is it more eloquent than I with a lot more info than I know of.

Is 6.5 Grendel the New 300 Blackout? - NugginFutz - 02-28-2014

Quote:The only similarity between the Blackout and the Grendel is that they are both designed to use the same AR platform. Comparing them beyond that is pointless.

Well said, Klem. Well said.