NugginFutz Wrote:Same here - and I am not certain at all, that 30 cal is any advantage, other than a wider selection of pills to choose from.

Klem Wrote:If the thread is morphing into opinions of the Blackout I'm going to jump in here.

I've had one since they first came out. The original 16" barrel, 1:8twist with carbine-length gas system. Have hunted with it and spent beaucoup $$$ on trying every projectile I can find. My thoughts...A very average caliber. Supersonic is too slow, and subsonic suffers from over-penetration.

BjornF16 Wrote:That's why I was asking about 30 ARX...I have a 10" Noveske 300 BLK barrel that I'm wondering would do better as a 30 ARX.

Klem Wrote:If the thread is morphing into opinions of the Blackout I'm going to jump in here.

...

The caliber sounds impressive on paper but it is slow, and subsonic is a whole different ball-game when hunting flesh. Trying to tell this to aficionado's on the Blackout forum is like walking into a mosque wearing an 'Infidels Rule' T shirt. Most treat it like a religion and refuse to listen. If ammunition manufacturers made projies designed to work when slow then it would help but until then...don't give up your Grendels gentlemen.

NugginFutz Wrote:You don't need to sell me, Klem. I've never felt the attraction to either the 300 Whisper or the Blackout.

I was wondering though, about the perceived advantage of a necked up 30 ARX over the Grendel. They would appear to have similar KE, but the 30's would likely have a lower BC and, consequently, a shorter effective range. I can only imagine the reason to go to the 30 ARX would be for a wider selection of bullets.

XcountryRider Wrote:With a 125gr Nosler BT its going to have a 325yard Effective Hunting Range.

Klem Wrote:OK, understood.

Your Blackout would be a nice light-weight home defense type setup. Noveske have a stirling reputation for Blackout uppers and drop-in's. Not sure about longer ranges however, but you would know better than me.

I worry about going too short in a Blackout. Ordinarily that means lower velocities and a super-loud bark. However Blackout needs to be used subsonic to justify the choice and the higher muzzle pressures that come with a short barrel mean your subsonic suppression suffers.

As for supersonic, the Blackout is already pretty slow with a 16" barrel so we both know what 10" is.

If I had my time again I'd probably go a 12.5" 1:7 twist Noveske Blackout barrel with pistol length gas tube.

Yes, good thinking...I reckon your 10" ARX would work much better than a 10" Blackout. No good subsonic however, but a 10" Blackout is pretty loud anyway.

NugginFutz Wrote:Ok. I'm not sure how you come to that, but for the sake of argument, let's agree. Now how does that compare to, let's say, a 123 gr SST in 6.5 going at 2500? The better BC would seem to give the advantage to the 6.5. I just can't see any pronounced advantages to the 30 ARX, is all I'm saying.

XcountryRider Wrote:Its going to be no comparison at all the Grendel of course easily wins by a 150yards at least. Here's a link to the 30 ARX Chart. Effective hunting range is determined by the point the round drops below 1800fps.

NugginFutz Wrote:Gotcha. So, my point still remains, I suppose. Cool! Neat! He necked up a 6.5G to 30 cal. What's the upside?

NugginFutz Wrote:Gotcha. So, my point still remains, I suppose. Cool! Neat! He necked up a 6.5G to 30 cal. What's the upside?

Klem Wrote:If the thread is morphing into opinions of the Blackout I'm going to jump in here.

I've had one since they first came out. The original 16" barrel, 1:8twist with carbine-length gas system. Have hunted with it and spent beaucoup $$$ on trying every projectile I can find. My thoughts...A very average caliber. Supersonic is too slow, and subsonic suffers from over-penetration.

1. Ammo weight is heavy! Supersonic rounds weigh twice as much as .223, and three times as much subsonic. Try humping that around wondering if the ammunition weighs as much as 7.62 why you are not carrying a 7.62.
2. Slow rounds means rainbow trajectory, which means shorter point-blank-ranges and less forgiving when judging distances than a .223.
3. Supersonic goes transonic quicker than a .223. Max effective range is shorter than .223 by about 20%.
4. 30cal projectiles available for the Blackout don't fly apart under 2,000fps. Slow velocities mean no temp-wound-cavity in flesh in the wake of the wound channel. No blood bruising that you see with .223. Time and again I see the animals being hunted stagger and remain alive for far too long after being shot. A round fired at about 2.3K fps quickly drops below 2K fps and then you are shooting handicapped.
5. The caliber is sold on its amazing penetration and extra energy than the .223. Not worth a cracker when it's in one side out the other. The marketing hype of penetrating '21 jugs of water' and then '3" of timber' is moot when the round enters and exits 12" of flesh like a laser beam, taking all that potential energy with it, with no temp-wound-cavity in its wake. If you haven't hit anything critical in the crush-trail you end up shaking your head at the irresponsibility of wounding an animal in flight.
6. Subsonic is the same. Laser beams through the target. Unless you hit the brain you're in for a long walk.
7. Suppressed subsonic is relatively loud compared to an 9mm MP5 SD, and even louder than a .22upper. There are only two dedicated subsonic hunting/flesh bullet manufacturers I am aware of; LeHigh and Outlaw State. These rounds are expensive. Main manufacturers of subsonic ammunition use stock 30cal match projectiles that are not designed for flesh. Great for paper if that's all you want the caliber for.

Subsonic Blackout leaves no temp-wound-cavity at all. So it's all up to shot placement and crush trail. You are carrying essentially an accurate .45 handgun (220gr @ 1,000fps). Max effective subsonic hunting range is about 150m with 100m being more like it. But, if you are not making use of the Blackout subsonic/suppressed then you have a pretty average gun compared to other AR calibres.

Here's a typical example of two shots fired subsonic using Outlaw State dedicated 30cal subsonic hunting projectiles. In one side out the other carrying all that 220gr of energy somewhere else. May as well have used match rounds. Or a .22LR... probably would have done more damage!

Entry holes; 70m and then a kill shot close-up.


Exit holes; No ballistic-tip damage, no gaping holes.


The caliber sounds impressive on paper but it is slow, and subsonic is a whole different ball-game when hunting flesh. Trying to tell this to aficionado's on the Blackout forum is like walking into a mosque wearing an 'Infidels Rule' T shirt. Most treat it like a religion and refuse to listen. If ammunition manufacturers made projies designed to work when slow then it would help but until then...don't give up your Grendels gentlemen.

Klem Wrote:It's not hard to compare the Blackout against any other supersonic cartridge and have it fail. The whole point of Blackout is so the shooter can engage both supersonic and subsonic with the one gun, and do this by nothing more than changing mags. To be a fair comparison you need to consider the 30ARX' subsonic ability.

Subsonic is the Blackout's 'raison d'etre' and its proponents put up with a pretty average supersonic ability to have this subsonic as well, to 'have their cake and eat it too'.

Lets compare the two subsonic (Quickload)...

Using heavy rounds; 220gr commercial and 240gr cast lead from a 16" barrel;

Same caliber so they are both stable when subsonic. (Pass).

Does the 30ARX cycle the action of an AR? You need over 4,500lbs at the gas port. Quickload is showing over 5,000lbs gas pressure at the carbine length gas system mark (7"), so yes it does. Manufacturers are now trending towards pistol length gas ports for the Blakcout for even more reliability. (Pass).

Case capacity. 38gr of capacity to fill to safe limits. Using any normal powder to obtain high subsonic and not exceed it (1050fps) the loads are coming in at under 50% filled. Under 80% and you risk Secondary Explosion Effect and Flash-Over. It will happen eventually. (Fail).

Perhaps if you used Trail Boss however my program does not list that. Trail Boss will fill more of the excess capacity but it all boils down to having the round no more than 1050fps with at least 5,000lbs at the gas port to cycle then it will work.

Trail Boss does not cycle an AR with heavy 200+gr projectiles in a Blackout. This means you have to crank the handle each time, and what is the tactical benefit of that?! It is much quieter however when using the lightest 110gn 30cal projies when comparing it with heavier cycling 220gr; both going subsonic. The guys on the Blackout forum call this 'Hollywood quiet'.

So, can the 30ARX be made to shoot subsonic and reliably cycle the action without creating a dangerous situation with under-filled cases? Using normal powders, no. There is a small possibility with Trail Boss powder however so until someone tries using the 30ARX cartridge we cannot say for sure. Having tinkered around with Blackout/Trail Boss/Subsonic for a couple of years now I doubt it. Likely you will make it safe but unlikely it will have enough grunt to cycle the action.

This being the case the 30ARX beats the Blackout supersonic, but fails subsonic. Neither one 'wins'.

BjornF16 Wrote:I'll sit on my hands for now and see how the 30 ARX plays out. I imagine the 300 BLK could be re-chambered to 30 ARX???