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+--- Thread: Bolt Group Buy - Possible? (/showthread.php?tid=6048)
Bolt Group Buy - Possible? - XcountryRider - 08-07-2013
They don't have a website that i know of. I originally found out about the shop from a post on AR15.com back in February when i was looking for a bolt carrier and everyone was price gouging. They decided to sell directly to the public at normal prices to by pass the gougers. I called them and picked up two carriers at separate times along with a ton of other people over on ar15.com. Pretty cool guy. I decided to give them a call back when this thread popped up. Will be nice to have a factory source we can get Grendel bolts from at decent prices without huge lead times. Waiting 8 months for a bolt from Alexander Arms is just ridiculous.
Bolt Group Buy - Possible? - cory - 08-07-2013
BOLT
ASTM 9310 equivalent surface-refined, case-hardened, peened, and phosphated
ASTM 9310 equivalent triple-tempered, surface-refined, hardened, and peened with thin, dense chrome plating
I got this of AA's website.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the Grendel Bolt is a 7.62 bolt with a recessed face.
XcountryRider, is that essentially the spec your guy at Maxim Firearms is wanting to use?
This seems like something we could really use Bill's input on.
BTW great find Country!
Bolt Group Buy - Possible? - XcountryRider - 08-07-2013
cory Wrote:BOLT
ASTM 9310 equivalent surface-refined, case-hardened, peened, and phosphated
ASTM 9310 equivalent triple-tempered, surface-refined, hardened, and peened with thin, dense chrome plating
I got this of AA's website.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the Grendel Bolt is a 7.62 bolt with a recessed face.
XcountryRider, is that essentially the spec your guy at Maxim Firearms is wanting to use?
This seems like something we could really use Bill's input on.
BTW great find Country!
We also want it to have a .136" recess like the Alexander arms bolt.
Bolt Group Buy - Possible? - wiersy111 - 08-07-2013
Even though all I have right now is a barrel and bolt I would like an extra bolt or to for back ups.
Bolt Group Buy - Possible? - bwaites - 08-07-2013
cory Wrote:BOLT
ASTM 9310 equivalent surface-refined, case-hardened, peened, and phosphated
ASTM 9310 equivalent triple-tempered, surface-refined, hardened, and peened with thin, dense chrome plating
I got this of AA's website.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the Grendel Bolt is a 7.62 bolt with a recessed face.
XcountryRider, is that essentially the spec your guy at Maxim Firearms is wanting to use?
This seems like something we could really use Bill's input on.
BTW great find Country!
It's SIMILAR to a 7.62x39 bolt with a recessed face. It's actually closer to the ORIGINAL 7.2x39 bolt that COLT developed. Most AR 7.62x39 bolts are simply 5.56 bolts opened up, with no adjustments in geometry for the deeper extractor necessary for the thicker case rim.
There is a significant difference in those 7.62 bolts and the Grendel bolt, which has been refined and reworked for the thicker rim of the Beowulf and Grendel.
To do this right, you need to make sure you use true Grendel spec bolts.
Les Baer uses the correct dimensioned bolts, though not in the hard use version, which is itself a refinement of the original Grendel/Beowulf bolt.
Bolt Group Buy - Possible? - cory - 08-07-2013
bwaites Wrote:...To do this right, you need to make sure you use true Grendel spec bolts...
Bwaites do you know where we can find this spec?
Bolt Group Buy - Possible? - cory - 08-07-2013
This is what I got from Les Baer: "We are not selling any AR parts seperately at this time. Everything that we are making have been allocated to our complete rifle orders.-"
Bolt Group Buy - Possible? - Whelenon - 08-07-2013
If a group buy does happen, the "hard use version" that bwaites refers to would be preferable, if possible.
Bolt Group Buy - Possible? - Kikn - 08-07-2013
Whelenon Wrote:If a group buy does happen, the "hard use version" that bwaites refers to would be preferable, if possible.
What he said
Bolt Group Buy - Possible? - bwaites - 08-07-2013
cory Wrote:Bwaites do you know where we can find this spec?
I don't. My thoughts would run towards seeing if we can work something out with AA, for the following reasons, among others:
1) Bill has done a TON of development work figuring out the best steel, radius dimensions, extractors, and geometry of the bolt. He shared that information with people like Les Baer who were assembling Grendels, but I don't think a drawing exists apart from those and the ones at AA.
2) The hard use bolt is superior to the other available versions.
3) Having bolts made by another manufacturer is certainly an option, but they will be basically having to rework bolts that they already make. Will they have proper extractors with proper geometry? Maybe, but I wouldn't want that risk if I was building a high end model with a great barrel!
4) Will they made sure the firing pin is the right one, with the deeper bolt face? Too long and pierced primers become a possibility.
Bolt Group Buy - Possible? - cory - 08-07-2013
bwaites Wrote:I don't. My thoughts would run towards seeing if we can work something out with AA, for the following reasons, among others:
1) Bill has done a TON of development work figuring out the best steel, radius dimensions, extractors, and geometry of the bolt. He shared that information with people like Les Baer who were assembling Grendels, but I don't think a drawing exists apart from those and the ones at AA.
2) The hard use bolt is superior to the other available versions.
3) Having bolts made by another manufacturer is certainly an option, but they will be basically having to rework bolts that they already make. Will they have proper extractors with proper geometry? Maybe, but I wouldn't want that risk if I was building a high end model with a great barrel!
4) Will they made sure the firing pin is the right one, with the deeper bolt face? Too long and pierced primers become a possibility.
I completely agree. My first, second, and third choice is an AA designed Hard Use Bolt, but if Bill can't help us out do we really have a choice?
Is there any chance we could get Bill and the guy at Maxim Firearms talking? It seems like Bill could use another bolt supplier.
Bolt Group Buy - Possible? - bwaites - 08-07-2013
cory Wrote:I completely agree. My first, second, and third choice is an AA designed Hard Use Bolt, but if Bill can't help us out do we really have a choice?
Is there any chance we could get Bill and the guy at Maxim Firearms talking? It seems like Bill could use another bolt supplier.
I know that he is always on the lookout for new suppliers, so that certainly is a possibility.
I'm hoping he is already watching the thread and will see this.
Bolt Group Buy - Possible? - XcountryRider - 08-07-2013
I don't think AA can ethically put us in front of everyone waiting on bolt orders for the last 6 months including myself.
Bolt Group Buy - Possible? - XcountryRider - 08-07-2013
If Bill PMs me i'll pass him the maxim poc.
Bolt Group Buy - Possible? - cory - 08-07-2013
XcountryRider Wrote:I don't think AA can ethically put us in front of everyone waiting on bolt orders for the last 6 months including myself.
This isn't an ethical question, it's a business profitability question. Shipping a large order to one person and letting them handle the logistics of mailing to the individuals is more profitable, not to mention how much time this would save AA.
A special order from the manufacturer for us would cause a negligible impact to their current order processing. In fact I'd venture to say it'd get them caught up much faster, as this would cause many of us to cancel our current bolt orders with them, decreasing their wait list.
Then there is advertisement for AA. The more popular Bill's baby the Grendel is the more traffic AA's website will receive likely increasing sells of other rifles. The more barrel manufacturers producing true Grendels the better it is for AA's business.
Bolt Group Buy - Possible? - Sputnik - 08-07-2013
cory Wrote:This isn't an ethical question, it's a business profitability question. Shipping a large order to one person and letting them handle the logistics of mailing to the individuals is more profitable, not to mention how much time this would save AA.
A special order from the manufacturer for us would cause a negligible impact to their current order processing. In fact I'd venture to say it'd get them caught up much faster, as this would cause many of us to cancel our current bolt orders with them, decreasing their wait list.
Then there is advertisement for AA. The more popular Bill's baby the Grendel is the more traffic AA's website will receive likely increasing sells of other rifles. The more barrel manufacturers producing true Grendels the better it is for AA's business.
I think you will find many people that will disagree. Business decision? Price gouging a business decision; but it isn't right. AA didn't do it. Now, I have never met Mr. Bill Alexander, but he seems to be a man of impeccable integrity! When he or his representatives say they fill orders in the "first come first served" method, all we can do is take him for his word. A man's word is his bond. I respect that, and I am sure there were temptations to let standards slide when items were not up to his specs, but from what I can tell, he resisted; that was a "business decision". I would not want to put him in a compromising position that would tarnish his reputation to put "us" with head-of-the-line privilege for bolts. IMHO, he should take care of his long list of customers awaiting parts before catering to this select group. If this endeavor, creates more high quality bolt sources for his business and for us, then it is a win-win. Mr. Alexander's guidance should be graciously accepted if he offers it. To go it alone with unproven sources is a crap shoot. You may end up with something "almost as good." In the meantime, I am still patiently awaiting the arrival of my AA upper, hard use bolt, ammo, and reload casings. When I get them, I am sure they will be of the highest quality and worth the wait. Don't get me wrong, I would love to get my Grendel built sooner rather than later. Sometimes there is the Business Decision and there is the Right Decision. Semper Fi!
Bolt Group Buy - Possible? - cory - 08-07-2013
Sputnik if you want to continue this discussion else where I'd be happy too, but I'm not willing to take this thread off course. It was started with one goal in mind, acquiring bolts.
If you'd like we can continue it per PM or per visitor messages if you'd like your voice heard publicly.
Bolt Group Buy - Possible? - Tedward - 08-07-2013
cory Wrote:Sputnik if you want to continue this discussion else where I'd be happy too, but I'm willing to take this thre course. It was started with one goal in mind, acquiring bolts.
If you'd like we can continue it per PM or per visitor messages if you'd like your voice heard publicly.
No need to get hasty with someone’s opinion here Cory….
I agree with Spuntnik that anything going thru AA will take longer and no cuts in line. He has a tremendous back log and our big 25 is peanuts. There are a lot of people and companies waiting on their orders. When I ordered 1 lower in December I thought it would ship before the guy who ordered 100. NOPE, AA said fist come 1st serve on everything. There are companies that buy their rifles and are waiting on orders to keep their shops open.
Second, AA taking a company they don't know and letting them make his product takes time away from his other work. He would need to QC it because once he says it's AA, he has a liability at hand. If a bolt carrier blows up because a fly by night "I can make you a bolt" company sells him crap, he is at fault for not doing his homework.
As far as advertising, Bill has already done that with the Grendel and has a forum; oh ya were on it...and is working on the next thing he is developing.
As for Maxim I know him too. I just spoke to him and he is willing to take this on but it will be some time, 4 to 6 weeks. Time to get materials, set up shop, send them out for heat treating, shot-pin, return and assembly and so on....He will need commitment, payment up front and I don't blame him because in 3 weeks there might be a batch of 5,000 that get released to all these distributors from distributor "X", who knows.... He would also be willing during this run and more so inclined if everyone got 2 bolts so he got the cash for 50 to 100 bolts up front. Then his risk is less and he gets paid and everyone has a spare.
There is a lot more than making a bolt or extractor, liability (lawyers to defend yourself if someone sues you), supply & demand, projected 6 week forecast, and MONEY... A contract for production is the most secure method of a manufacture and also creates a liability. I know Maxim will stand behind and produce a good product but the $$ figure he is asking, $75 isn't all that bad, LBC is $85 all the time and AA is $75.
Bolt Group Buy - Possible? - PrecisionFirearms - 08-07-2013
I have to voice a bit here. I have almost 600 6.5 Grendel Bolts ordered from AA. The oldest order is going on 16 months old. Just today we received 25 bolts, the first we have seen of these in 8 months. We have been using Les Baer Bolts and found them to be very good. We have used 500 of these and only 2 broken to date since LBC changed to enhanced materials. Before anyone asks, we are not in the business to selling bolts. Just giving you folks and the inside look at of supply and demand. One of the bottlenecks in production of uppers and rifles is the Bolt. Les Baer takes pretty good care of us. AA does what they can. If they don't have them - what are they to do?? I have the drawings here and just about started to make them, but we have concluded that for the price we can buy them, we can't make them. $75 for a complete 6.5 bolts is not unreasonable. Our cost estimate was close to $55 to make them before shot peening, heat treat, coating, MPI, and Test Firing. The extractor needs to made and was included in the cost. We may decide to make them at a later date, but right now there are much more profitable parts for our (2) 5 axis CNC Lathes to be making. We just finalized a real nice 6.5 Caliber Brake with 3 baffles and 11 degree target crown.
Bolt Group Buy - Possible? - Sputnik - 08-07-2013
Thank you Cory, thank you Tedward. Truce....who knows, maybe this adventure will benefit everyone. Especially it more sources are found that allows AA to buy thousands of bolts piggy backing on Cory's project. The AA can send all the back logged customers their order. Semper Fi!