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6.5 Grendel Preferred Loads - sneaky one - 10-02-2012
RJ., you should also include hunting bullets, not only target units-fair is fair.
6.5 Grendel Preferred Loads - stokesrj - 10-02-2012
Let me begin by reverse engineering the Hornady factory load. Obviously it uses a Hornady case which uses a small rifle primer and the Hornady 123 A-max bullet, but what primer, what powder, what charge weight, what neck tension, what COL and so on.
Beginning with the easiest to measure the COL 20 rounds from lot #3121949 were found to be very consistent measuring a nominal 2.250" and varying from 2.249" to 2.252".
The next measure is the length to the ogive which the same 20 rounds measured 1.671" to 1.674". In my experience this is very good control.
Those measurements out of the way I then ran all 20 through the concentricity gauge to measure bullet runout and again found very good control with 19 out of 20 measuring less than .003" run-out and only one round exceeding this at .004". My experience has been that anything .003" and under is undetectable out to 1,000 yards and even .004 would still keep it in the ten ring.
Neck tension seems to be light, loaded rounds measure .290 to .291 while cases with the bullets pulled measured .289. I realize that the brass may not be elastic enough to snap back to original measurements but I doubt that neck tension exceeded .002" as origianlly loaded judging by how easily the bullets pulled from the case.
So with those preliminaries out of the way, three rounds were selected at random and disassembled. I found them to contain 29.1 grains of a ball powder that appears identical to CFE223 under a microscope but there is no guarantee this is the powder used.
![[Image: photo83.jpg]](http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/photo83.jpg)
6.5 Grendel Preferred Loads - bobke - 10-02-2012
Bob-
My Hornady brass is all small rifle primed-certainly an oversight, unless they've changed most recently. Please excuse my jumping in to what I envision will be a most educational and valuable thread. It ought to be a sticky- or will be soon enough.
6.5 Grendel Preferred Loads - stokesrj - 10-02-2012
Correct, small rifle primer, I corrected it.
Bob
6.5 Grendel Preferred Loads - Drifter - 10-02-2012
stokesrj Wrote:Let me begin by reverse engineering the Hornady factory load...
...I found them to contain 29.1 grains of a ball powder that appears identical to CFE223 under a microscope but there is no guarantee this is the powder used.
While the powder might appear similar to CFE223, I don't think it would be the powder used in the factory load. At 29.1 grains, it's probably a faster burning powder, as it takes 31.0 grains of CFE223 to match factory velocities in my barrel.
Unfortunately, Hornady likely uses a powder unavailable to the public, but perhaps we might learn something different.
6.5 Grendel Preferred Loads - stokesrj - 10-02-2012
Yes, I spoke to the head ballistician at Hornady, he said it isn't CFE223 and I already knew that anyway since 29.1 grains would come no where near the velocities we see from the factory load, but it looks identical. He said he was not allowed to disclose the powder used so I explained to him what we were trying to accomplish. He then said if I were you and trying to accomplish what you are trying to accomplish then use Accurate 2520.
I surmise they are using a bulk grade of the same powder. At least we have a place to start, they gave a range of 28.4 to 29.3 grains.
Bob
6.5 Grendel Preferred Loads - stokesrj - 10-02-2012
sneaky one Wrote:RJ., you should also include hunting bullets, not only target units-fair is fair.
I'm okay with hunting bullets as well, I just don't expect them to produce as universally accurate load as match bullets. Besides haven't you noticed more of us are using the 123 A-Max for hunting than with any ohter bullet and all reports so far are favorable.
Bob
6.5 Grendel Preferred Loads - Drifter - 10-02-2012
Hornady's powder in the factory load seems more temp stable than 2520. I think we could all find happiness with 2520 if it wasn't for the temp sensitivity.
6.5 Grendel Preferred Loads - bwaites - 10-02-2012
Hornady's powder is most likely a variant on their Superperformance powders. Some time ago, perhaps during development, someone brought up that it was a St. Marks powder, and Hornady never disputed that, which also fits the Superperformance envelope. 2520 is not as temp stable as the Hornady loads seem to be, so that's a non starter for me.
Interesting that it looks like CFE, because I have seen no copper fouling from the factory loads, and I've noted almost no copper fouling after I shoot it behind my handloads, regardless of what powder I use. That could be my barrel, but it is intriguing.
Does it smell like CFE, which has a very distinctive pepper smell?
Drifter beat me to the temp. sensitivity issue.
6.5 Grendel Preferred Loads - AR-180 - 10-02-2012
I have tried a few times over the years to find the pet load for the Grendel. I am glad to see this get traction.
6.5 Grendel Preferred Loads - stokesrj - 10-02-2012
bwaites Wrote:Hornady's powder is most likely a variant on their Superperformance powders. Some time ago, perhaps during development, someone brought up that it was a St. Marks powder, and Hornady never disputed that, which also fits the Superperformance envelope. 2520 is not as temp stable as the Hornady loads seem to be, so that's a non starter for me.
Interesting that it looks like CFE, because I have seen no copper fouling from the factory loads, and I've noted almost no copper fouling after I shoot it behind my handloads, regardless of what powder I use. That could be my barrel, but it is intriguing.
Does it smell like CFE, which has a very distinctive pepper smell?
Drifter beat me to the temp. sensitivity issue.
I didn't notice any smell when I pulled the bullets from the factory loads, so I don't know what to make of that. I don't have any of the Hodgdon Superformance powder, but I do have some of the Superformance 6.5 Creedmoor loads, I could dissasemble and compare to the Grendel factory powder.
I don't undersatnd why they are secritive about the Grendel powder when they print right on the box what the 6.5 Creedmoor load is, for example the 120 A-Max load is 39.0 grains of Varet with a Federal 210M primer and COL of 2.715". They even stated this information was made public so that handloaders could duplicate this load. It is highly refined and shoots all shots touching at 100 yards out of my McMillan 2k.
We are a smart bunch and will crack the code. If need be I'll call Steve Hornady myself and ask him point blank. He and I shared a huting camp in British Columbia so I think it would be hard for him to say no.
6.5 Grendel Preferred Loads - rickOshay - 10-02-2012
To duplicate the commercial AMAX velocity (2420 fps from 16"), I need closer to 30.0 gr of AA2520.
http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?3928-Powder-Burn-Rate-effects
6.5 Grendel Preferred Loads - bwaites - 10-02-2012
stokesrj Wrote:I didn't notice any smell when I pulled the bullets from the factory loads, so I don't know what to make of that. I don't have any of the Hodgdon Superformance powder, but I do have some of the Superformance 6.5 Creedmoor loads, I could dissasemble and compare to the Grendel factory powder.
I don't undersatnd why they are secritive about the Grendel powder when they print right on the box what the 6.5 Creedmoor load is, for example the 120 A-Max load is 39.0 grains of Varet with a Federal 210M primer and COL of 2.715". They even stated this information was made public so that handloaders could duplicate this load. It is highly refined and shoots all shots touching at 100 yards out of my McMillan 2k.
We are a smart bunch and will crack the code. If need be I'll call Steve Hornady myself and ask him point blank. He and I shared a huting camp in British Columbia so I think it would be hard for him to say no.
I hoped that Hornady would handle the Grendel much as they had the Creedmoor, publishing the load and the powder, and then marketing the powder itself. I always thought the Creedmoor model was genius in that respect. St. Marks won't label their own powder, they are a manufacturer and won't become a marketer, Bill Alexander tried to get them to sell the AA powder to handloaders without success, then tried to find someone who would label and market it, but the supply chain for powder is a tough ball game evidently.
CFE is very distinctive smelling, completely different than any other powder I have, which although they vary a bit, all have a similar smell.
It might take a phone call to Steve, and a suggestion to do the same with the Grendel that they have with the Creedmoor. Their load is almost magical, the closest thing to a universal load anyone has come to market with for the Grendel. Reloaders are going to reload, regardless of whether we buy powder from Hornady or someone else, and we'll try to match that load. It might as well make Hornady some money!
6.5 Grendel Preferred Loads - stokesrj - 10-02-2012
rickOshay Wrote:To duplicate the commercial AMAX velocity (2420 fps from 16"), I need closer to 30.0 gr of AA2520.
http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?3928-Powder-Burn-Rate-effects
Looks like TAC would be closer to the Hornady factory load by your graphs.
Bob
6.5 Grendel Preferred Loads - Bill Alexander - 10-02-2012
The Hornady projectile has a nice short bearing surface but the scramble is always to balance the powder with the primer and the case volume. Hornady have a unique advantage in being able to adjust the powder to the primer and examine what they are doing to the internal ballistics. Plus they make great bullets.
Given the question I would probably start not with a 123 g bullet but with a Lapua 108 Scenar or a 100 Berger. This opens the number of available powders that are suitable for the case volume and bullet weights and shortens the bearing surface.
The crux is that the the little case is always full of powder so it is essentially consistent. The problem is that the case is always full of powder so it amplifies any tiny deviations in the components or their assembly into ammunition.
My start would be once fired Lapau brass. Clean the primer pocket and call it good. Do not polish the cases. Use the 108 Scenar on a maximum charge of Tac or the equivalent Hodgdon powder. (might try leverevolution) and a minimum neck tension (Redding dies and Dillon case lube allowed to set up). Might even allow the bullets to tarnish a bit. Then play primers. CCI #450 CCI #400 WSRM maybe Remington. Guess would be the CCI.
We kind of already do this for the factory guns and we accuracy test all the GDMR and GSR models as well as a lot of others. If the chamber is in spec it will shoot.
Now if the question is can we find a load that will shoot in the variations of both Grendel and non Grendel chambers with any consistency I would bow to LR1955.
6.5 Grendel Preferred Loads - stokesrj - 10-02-2012
Bill, my objective is to find a single standard load or a handful of standard loads that shoots well in all 6.5 Grendel rifles. I think it is fine to limit it to 6.5 Grendel chambered rifles since it is now a SAMMI standard chamber. I would still be interested in how these loads we settle on shoot in other chambers but the focus should be on Grendel chambers. So, given that do you have a load you would submit as the single best load to shoot out of all Grendel rifles? From my rifles the 123 A-max shoots more accurately, more often than the 107 SMK or the 108 Scenar but I don't have any experience with the 100 Berger. That does not preclude that the most accurate load could be the 107 SMK or 108 SMK, they just hasn't performed as well at range as the 123 A-Max for me.
So what do you propose?
Bob
6.5 Grendel Preferred Loads - stokesrj - 10-03-2012
I pulled a bullet from one of my Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor Superformance factory rounds to compare to the powder to the Hornady 6.5 Grendel 123 A-Max factory loads. The Superformance powder is very similar to the powder in the 6.5 Grendel factory load, a flattened spherical powder but the Superformance is slightly larger granule size, it does smell like the CFE223, the pepper smell. I also compared Accurate 2520 and ruled it our right away, it is not flattened. I then compared it to TAC and it appears to match it very closely but the closest match by appearance remains the CFE223.
The search continues.
Bob
6.5 Grendel Preferred Loads - LR1955 - 10-03-2012
Bill Alexander Wrote:The Hornady projectile has a nice short bearing surface but the scramble is always to balance the powder with the primer and the case volume. Hornady have a unique advantage in being able to adjust the powder to the primer and examine what they are doing to the internal ballistics. Plus they make great bullets.
Given the question I would probably start not with a 123 g bullet but with a Lapua 108 Scenar or a 100 Berger. This opens the number of available powders that are suitable for the case volume and bullet weights and shortens the bearing surface.
The crux is that the the little case is always full of powder so it is essentially consistent. The problem is that the case is always full of powder so it amplifies any tiny deviations in the components or their assembly into ammunition.
My start would be once fired Lapau brass. Clean the primer pocket and call it good. Do not polish the cases. Use the 108 Scenar on a maximum charge of Tac or the equivalent Hodgdon powder. (might try leverevolution) and a minimum neck tension (Redding dies and Dillon case lube allowed to set up). Might even allow the bullets to tarnish a bit. Then play primers. CCI #450 CCI #400 WSRM maybe Remington. Guess would be the CCI.
We kind of already do this for the factory guns and we accuracy test all the GDMR and GSR models as well as a lot of others. If the chamber is in spec it will shoot.
Now if the question is can we find a load that will shoot in the variations of both Grendel and non Grendel chambers with any consistency I would bow to LR1955.
Bill:
Simple. 120 Sierra Match King. Same load, same OAL. It will shoot as well as a person can hold from either chamber providing the barrel is of good quality.
Some loads using other bullets will shoot better but my bet is that they won't shoot equally well out of either chamber and they won't shoot equally well with almost any safe Grendel load. My bet is that a 120 will.
However, no commercial outfit will make money off of selling loaded ammo with a 120 Sierra as the bullet is not a "VLD". That part is marketing and I can't blame the manufacturers. No matter how good that bullet may be, if the ammo isn't marketed as a 'VLD', it won't sell.
LR1955
6.5 Grendel Preferred Loads - stokesrj - 10-03-2012
LR1955 Wrote:However, no commercial outfit will make money off of selling loaded ammo with a 120 Sierra as the bullet is not a "VLD". That part is marketing and I can't blame the manufacturers. No matter how good that bullet may be, if the ammo isn't marketed as a 'VLD', it won't sell.
LR1955
I don't know about that Gene, in the .223, the Sierra 77 SMK is not VLD and is by far the most popular High Power bullet out there. Black Hills, Atlanta Arms and Federal Gold Medal Match loads use it and they sell very strong. Also Hornady 75 BTHP, same story, not VLD and both the bullet and factory loads using it go by the millions. The reason is, they shoot out of most guns really well. That's what I'm looking for here, but for the Grendel. In my guns the 123 A-Max shoots better than the 120 SMK, however, that doesn't mean it does in most guns.
Do you have a 120 SMK load that you would propose that we include in this test?
Bob
6.5 Grendel Preferred Loads - stokesrj - 10-03-2012
Here is what I'm thinking at this point. I would like us to settle on a handfull of candidate loads, maybe five or six. Define these loads in detail, and then as many of us as are willing agree to test them all and report in a standard format the results. RickOshay has volunteered to collect and format this data.
I realize not everyone has a chronograph, or even the facilities to conduct a controlled test, but many of us do. These tests will cost money, to do it right is probably more than a hundred bucks each unless we have all the components laying around. But if you are like me your going to be shooting something anyway and it might as well be a coordinated effort to discover what works best.
So far, it appears we have the following candidates;
1. Hornady 123 A-Max factory load
2. 100 A-Max Bwild load, 34 grains CFE223
3. 108 Scenar to be proposed by Bill
4. 120 SMK to be proposed by Gene
5. 123 A-Max 28.5 grains IMR8208XBR
6. Perhaps a 123A-max factory duplicate if I or we can figure out what that would be.
Once these tests are defined fully, it would be wise to back off and work up to each load to be safe. I know that some have reported high pressure signs on loads that are safe in my rifles. So it may not be possible to test these by simply loading and firing the matrix. But that in itself could be useful information.
What are the rest of you thinking? Is there a load that you think is a stronger candidate than the ones I have listed?
Bob