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+--- Thread: I'm in a pickle (/showthread.php?tid=25566)
I'm in a pickle - Klem - 04-15-2023
Paul,
Lilja is as good as any of the best 6.5 barrels. They are a family run business who stand by their quality. They manufacture barrels for civilian national/international matches and are the choice for DEVGRU's recon rifles (the 'M4 Navy' profile - they have a slightly longer 18.8" equivalent profile in Grendel called the '319'). They stamp their barrels with their logo (see their website) so you know it's legit.
Grendel has the smallest case of all the popular 6.5 calibres. That's why it can fit in AR15 mags and use its relatively fragile receiver. Because of this however it is a relatively slow calibre. If bullet expansion is designed as low as 1,500fps then 400m will be its max effective range. Some bullets need at least 2,000fps which is only about 200M in Grendel. This doesn't take into account bullet placement of course and these are broad benchmarks. Also the bullet is influenced by the wind more than the other 6.5 calibres. If long range hunting is your thing then the calibre is not a good choice, regardless of barrel length. 20" and longer is almost compulsory for what you are planning. If longer than 20" you may as well get an AR10 in a larger calibre, with a more normal length barrel typical of an AR. Or get a bolt gun, which will be around 22-26" length. And if you get a bolt gun you may as well get it in a larger calibre. Again, all this for long range hunting.
But surely you can get closer than 600M for the shot.
I'm in a pickle - Ol' Paulie - 04-15-2023
Good heavens there is a lot I have to learn.
I'm in a pickle - grayfox - 04-15-2023
There's a 2-vol set of grendel handbooks for sale on here, that I got when I was starting out. Lots of info applicable to shooting and hunting in general but covers the Grendel about the best you can ask for.
In the AR15 build box threads of the Industry partners part of this forum. I'd recommend you get those books, not expensive at all for the wealth of info you get.
My own personal limit for grendel is ~200 yds, which is based on terminal ballistics of the bullet plus my own estimation of my abilities while in the woods. I try to have the ammo that would work out to 250, hunting is far different than just smacking something with some lead... like the others have already said. Of course I shoot out here in the eastern US so a 200 yd shot is a rarity. Most of my hunting is around 100 yds on in, with an occasional 150-200.
If you want to ethically bring down game at 300-500 yds then you should be looking at a 6.5 creedmoor or even a tad heavier of a rifle... and I would suggest a bolt action as well. Nothing wrong with one shot one kill with a bolt action.
I'm in a pickle - jasper2408 - 04-15-2023
Hart and Lilja are button-rifled barrels while Krieger, Brux, and Bartlein are cut rifled barrels.
Now before anyone starts screaming, I am not saying that one is better than the other. I am just putting this info out if it makes a difference to you.
I'm in a pickle - Ol' Paulie - 04-15-2023
How does this compare to 5.56 which many say is 450m effective
I'm in a pickle - grayfox - 04-15-2023
First you need to define "effective." And then what kind of target you intend.
Maybe hitting a coyote at 450, I guess maybe.
I'm in a pickle - Klem - 04-15-2023
Ol' Paulie Wrote:How does this compare to 5.56 which many say is 450m effective
Paul,
Depends what your definition of effective is.
F Class shoots .223 to 1,000yards in their competition matches. To them 1K yds is 'effective', although they are only punching holes in a target. If we are talking about '5.56', then it implies we are talking about shooting humans in combat (5.56x45 is the NATO designate for a military cartridge). The humane expectations of hunting are subordinated to the pragmatism of war, and any rules countries may be signatory to, or at least abide by. The definition of 'effective' is different to hunting animals with a .223; it is more about taking the enemy out of battle and wounding might be just as effective as killing. For hunting animals we prefer not to wound, so the same rifle's max effective range will be different, no doubt less. And it also depends what animal you are shooting.
I have heard 200-250M is the max effective range for 5.56mm, but again it depends on the scenario. Is it M262 from a 20" barrel, or SS109/M885 from a 14.4" barrel? One goes further than the other and they have different end results.
The Grendel is like a .223 on steroids, you can add another 200M to the max effective range, but range alone is only one factor in the definition of 'effective'.
Distances that define effective are benchmarks. Militaries for example refer to the expectation of the gun and ammunition in the hands of the average shooter. In our case, in a hunting scenario we refer to ourselves only. How effective are we as individuals, in humanely dispatching what we intend to kill.
I'm in a pickle - Ol' Paulie - 04-17-2023
That's extremely enlightening klem. If only you had some treatise on caliber effectiveness at range. Thank you!
I'm in a pickle - Ol' Paulie - 04-17-2023
Hey everyone I just did some research and since most hunts ate sub 200m I think my envisioning of what I want was way too large thank you all for your help!
I'm in a pickle - Fess - 04-17-2023
I live in NC and quite a lot of local hunters have never made a shot over 200 yards either. Depending on where you plan to hunt, 100 yards can be a long shot.
I'm in a pickle - Bonas - 04-18-2023
Grendel is a $1.00+ a round cartridge now. Don't save money on your barrel. When an A+ barrel costs $450 or so, and a B barrel costs $200 or so, the A+ barrel is a no-brainer.
I'm in a pickle - Eye_guy - 04-22-2023
Youve gotten great advice in the above posts.
Ive built a handful of ARs. In my experience, the barrel is the difference in accuracy if you do your part. So my personal philosophy is to skimp where I can. Gas block, gas tube, lower parts kit, upper parts kit, act.
Id recommend a Geissele SSA-E trigger for hunting applications, I personally like the JoeBob Spartan billeted lower (seems to help the metal mags of the Grendel function better), and a decent rail. I like my BCM MCMR which can be found on sale for ~$150. Then it comes down to how much you want to spend on a barrel.
I will differ in that Ive had good results with a lower priced optic. I had a bad experience with the aero mounts, switched to Warne and no issues since. for glass, Vortex and primary arms (and many others) should be good to go. Again, I personally dont think one has to spend more than $200-$300 to get a decent optic that will hold zero.
I hunt at long distances. Rarely shoot deer under 200 yards in the open country we hunt. Shoot to 600 at my local range. I put my Grendel deer limit around 400 yards. I like the 129 gr ABLR. Been trying to go to a copper round, but Grendel velocities at those distances are problematic for copper expansion. Ive had inconsistent results with copper for Grendel hunting at distance. I went with a 20 barrel on my hunting rifle builds to extract all the velocity I can. As others have stated, longer barrel means more velocity which means more distance to still be able to effectively expand projectiles.
Ive shot deer with the 5.56. With that cartridge I limited myself (really it was my daughter) to 200 yard shots. The difference in effectiveness on deer between the Grendel and the 5.56 is vast. The Grendel knocks deer dead, at least in my experience. Its a huge difference between it and 5.56.
I have a 20 fluted Faxon that does alright. 1 MOA or a bit better. I have a fluted ballistic advantage DMR that is similar. Which one is better depends on the load. Both will shoot under 1 MOA with handloads after load development.
IMHO, with a Grendel at distance the atmospheric conditions will introduce more error than a 1 MOA rifle on most days. Again, I shoot to 600 yards, its crazy what a variable <5mph wind will do to a bullet. Again, its more than 1 MOA.
That said, there is certainly truth to the cost of ammo quickly catching up to the cost delta of a barrel. Ive own a Grendel barrel it took me 100+ rounds to find one that was sub MOA. Had I started with a lilja, Bartlein, or Kreiger Id probably have spent the same amount of $$$. The fancier barrels seem to be less choosy, nearly any load seems to work. So you wont shoot 100 rounds to find something sub MOA. Who knows, maybe you even get 1/4-1/2 MOA but I dont personally believe any barrel can shoot all loads under 1/2 MOA.
I like to keep a hunting rifle well under 7 lbs before a scope. A lot of the precision barrels are as heavy as a tank. I personally like to keep my barrel under 2 lbs for hunting. If you are just shooting at the range then the heavier the better.
I'm in a pickle - Konocti's Wigwam - 11-02-2023
Ol' Paulie Wrote:So I just priced up an upper because I wanted a 20in upper and i wanted some quality to it. Turns out I'll be spending about around 2k to put it all together! I don't think I have ever even seen 2k in person lol.I've seen 'em but never owned one...LOL
I can't justify investing that much coin in an upper, I went cheap on my 6.5 Grendel, using a 16" barrel, but am thinking to put a 12" barrel in another 300 blackout upper I have...first world problems, doncha know?
I think I would invest in a Ruger or Howa mini-action bolt before I would spend that type of coin on a gas gun.
I have way more options than I need, even an LR-308 is a decent rifle that will take down any game in NA.
I'm not married to Grendel, but feel like I made a mistake building 300 blackout rather than 6.5 Grendel. But one thing the 300 blackout has going for it is size/weight. I have a 7.5" 300 blackout with a Red Dot on it that weigh 6.5 lbs.
Here's a very interesting bit of trivia. There are 3 loads here, 300 blackout on the left, 6.5 Grendel in the middle and 8.6 blackout on the right.
Both the test loads use the same powder drops for 6.5 Grendel and 8.6 blackout. The 8.6 blackout is massive in comparison to the 6.5 Grendel.
Lastly, when I look at the 300 blackout and 6.5 Grendel, the 6.5 Grendel looks better proportionally than the 300 blackout, IMO. Since I am not planning to hunt with subsonic, everything will be loaded to supersonic.
KW
EDIT:
Load info:
300 blackout using CFEBLK and Hornady 110 CX bullets, Starline nickel plated brass, Federal GM205MAR primers (AR Match primers)
6.5 Grendel using H335, Barnes 120gr TTSX, Starline brass, Federal GM205MAR primers
8.6 blackout using CFEBLK and Hornady 225gr CX bullets, Gorilla 8.6 blackout brass, CCI 34 primers.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]20019[/ATTACH]
I'm in a pickle - Redraider - 11-05-2023
Here is something to keep in the back of your mind, if I am not mistaken, I think there are alot of states that do NOT allow game hunting with any .22 caliber(5.56) rifle!
Redraider
I'm in a pickle - biodsl - 11-05-2023
tdbru Wrote:I wanted a light weight 20" upper build when I was putting my 2nd upper together, so went with the faxon gunner profile barrel as it appeared to be the lightest 20" production tube I could find. And considered each part of the upper for function vs weight and made my choices.
Sadly, this barrel seems to be out of production. I don't think there was anything quite like it on the market.
I'm in a pickle - Konocti's Wigwam - 11-08-2023
I'm never spent $2k on any of my uppers, EVER. In fact I have bought most of my scopes used.
Certainly if you want all of those designer parts, that's what it will cost you. You can save a lot up front by using something you have already, then get the scope/rings later. My suggestion...
I'm in a pickle - Steve_evetS - 11-18-2023
Fess Wrote:There is a BIG difference in hunting with a Grendel at 600 yards and shooting steel. I am more conservative than many here, but I don't consider the 6.5 Grendel to be a 600 yard hunting cartridge. Also be aware that most data for factory ammo is with a 24" barrel. The bullet will be going pretty slow out there so expansion will be an issue. Any wind will move the bullet a fair distance laterally.https://youtu.be/AO51KPbbmFk?feature=shared
I'm in a pickle - LRRPF52 - 11-18-2023
Fess Wrote:There is a BIG difference in hunting with a Grendel at 600 yards and shooting steel. I am more conservative than many here, but I don't consider the 6.5 Grendel to be a 600 yard hunting cartridge. Also be aware that most data for factory ammo is with a 24" barrel. The bullet will be going pretty slow out there so expansion will be an issue. Any wind will move the bullet a fair distance laterally.
Yes. 600yds is really pushing it beyond what most would even consider.
400yds is about the cut-off for expansion for most loads, and requires elevation hold or dialing for your POA to equal POI.
With any rifle caliber, the vast majority of shooters should really keep it within 300yds until they get training with shooting at intermediate distances.
I'm in a pickle - LRRPF52 - 11-18-2023
Steve_evetS Wrote:https://youtu.be/AO51KPbbmFk?feature=shared
That bull elk was taken at 390yds, which is close to the edge of 6.5 Grendel capability.
It didnt leave its bed, so it was a very successful harvest.
I think it would have expired faster if they used a suppressor and a 129gr ABLR, but thats speculation.
Animals dont seem to be as spooked with Grendel as they are with magnums or 06 sized cases.
That guide who filmed the video has done 111 different Elk hunts and says that the 6.5 Grendel AR-15 is an ideal elk cartridge for youth hunters, who he can take and get a lot of trigger time with out at distance to build proficiency and confidence, then limit them to a certain engagement distance when it comes time to fill tags. They were using a 24 barrel with 123gr SST.
I'm in a pickle - Bob R - 12-18-2023
I am in the middle of a 6.5 Grendel build myself.
I am using an Anderson Upper and Lower Receiver.
AR-Stoner Bolt Carrier Group.
AR-Stoner Rifle Buffer Tube, Buffer, and Spring.
Mag-Pull MOE Fixed Rifle Stock.
Aero-Precision Lower Build Kit w/o Fire Control Parts. MagPul MOE Grip.
AR-Stoner Mil Spec charging handle. I will probably add the Badger Latch to it.
Stern Defense 15" M-Loc Handguard.
Stern Defense 2-Stage Cassette Trigger w/Lite Rifle Spring, factory installed and tested. 2.5 LB Second Stage
BARREL Compass Lake H-Bar 20", using a Douglas Blank.
AR-Stoner Magazines (Ammunition Storage Component Brand).
Scope Base: Leupold Mark AR Cantilever Base. (I now have Four, I like them)
Scope: SWFA 20X Super Sniper that I have owned for years.
I believe that I have picked my parts wisely for the best Bang for my Buck's. I did spend a little more on what should be a quality barrel. Waiting on the barrel to get it all together. I sure hope that it ends up being a tack driver.
Bob R