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Are shorter barrels more accurate? - bwaites - 02-05-2012
My experience is much less, I can't even say I've handled a hundred AR's, much less built that many! I don't shoot in across the course matches, I don't shoot 3 gun.
I expect that I am pretty much a "Joe Everyman" when it comes to AR's.
However, I have swapped uppers and lowers among my rifles multiple times, trying to get a snug fit. What I have repeatedly found is that it really doesn't matter what lower they are on, I can shoot similar groups. (All my lowers currently have AA Tactical triggers, so the triggers are very similar) If its on a loose lower, and it rattles, it doesn't seem to make a difference, I've checked using friends lowers. I've installed accuwedges in those loose lowers, and while it stops the rattle, I can't see that it changes the way the rifle shoots.
I don't like rattles, so I have used accuwedges, but not because I think that they improve accuracy, and not because I think a tight fit improves accuracy, but because I like no rattles!
Right now, all my lowers fit my uppers fairly snugly, and I'm leaving them alone!
I realize I'm a test group of one, and that my results are only my results.
It's interesting to hear that others have worked on this, and found the same results I have.
Are shorter barrels more accurate? - elkbow - 02-05-2012
sorry, said I wouldn't post, so will leave it at this, I believe everyones thoughts on this are different, probably has to be the most asked question, most debated, greatest range of answers and opinions, yet it is so hard to prove since mostly the accuracy is purely in the upper, but I think Clint McKee from Fulton Armory answers it the best:
"
There have been a number of questions lately about looseness of AR-15 upper/lower receiver fit, Accuwedge, etc. Here's my response:
First of all, does looseness or tightness of fit make a difference in accuracy? Maybe, maybe not (how's that for sage advice!). Some say yes, some say it does not matter. In some rifles, it may make a difference, in others, we do know they still shoot well, even though the receivers "flop around."
Personally, I find a rattle trap very annoying, whether it be a rifle, pistol, car, etc. So, at least we do know that the Accuwedge does not hurt accuracy, and eliminates the rattle trap syndrome!
Second, it seems to me that since the sights are on the upper receiver, and you hold the rifle primarily by the lower receiver (pistol grip), that if the upper moves relative to the lower, then the sight picture can move, relative to the hold!
Thirdly, all the engineers & physicists on this group know that when things can move freely, they will, when subjected to a force. If the upper & lower receivers are dancing all over town each & every time the recoil energy is transferred, then is it not unreasonable to assume that the upper & lower receiver take down pin holes are getting an unreasonable amount of wear from being shocked up & down, back & forth, left & right? The pins are steel & the receivers are aluminum. Guess who loses the battle over time?
"
Are shorter barrels more accurate? - bwaites - 02-05-2012
elkbow Wrote:stokes, did you ever read what I said? And why would AMU test like that, why would they eliminate the lower if it has no affect on accuracy?
I'm not stokes, but knowing stokes, I'm sure he did. The AMU tested like that because they have recognized that the lower plays no significant part in accuracy. The bolt locks into the barrel extension, and there is no stress contact with the bolt or barrel from the lower except in the takedown pins and the infintesiminally short time the hammer strikes the firing pin. The lower only serves the purpose of seperating the firing pin from the trigger and mounting the upper so that may occur.
also, 'regardles of that I still like a tight fit'? why?
For the same reason I do, he doesn't like rattles. That's why he ordered a fitted upper/lower from Les Baer.
guys are you talking about experience or what you read? geez.....
stokes has shot like 50-60 Nationals level matches in the last two years or so, if I remember right. Including shooting Camp Perry every year for years now. I'm guessing its a combination of experience and talking with Nationals level shooters, coaches, and armorers. You don't get to spend enough time with the AMU to find out that kind of stuff unless you are a ways up the shooting ladder on a National level.
ok, post away, i won't be posting, normally don't get in these debates, i'll stick with what I know and my experience....you stick with what you think or read
I'm sorry t hear that. Hearing differences of opinion and experience, and hashing through why they happen and the thought processes behind them are what make these kinds of boards worthwhile. So long as it doesn't get personally offensive, those conversations are very helpful to less experienced shooters.
I'll leave you with a parting though, if i'm shooting off of shooting sticks, I have loose takedown pins, forearm is on the sticks. First shot I shoot I apply pressure rearward on the grip, second shot I apply pressure forward on the grip, where is the pressure on the upper? any affect?
That's an interesting question, never have tried it, and I wonder if it will have any effect. So long as the hammer can strike the firing pin with appropriate force, I see no effect. The bolt is locked into the barrel extension, and I assume the barrel is free floated, so there is no stress on it from the upper.
Are shorter barrels more accurate? - bwaites - 02-05-2012
elkbow Wrote:sorry, said I wouldn't post, so will leave it at this, I believe everyones thoughts on this are different, probably has to be the most asked question, most debated, greatest range of answers and opinions, yet it is so hard to prove since mostly the accuracy is purely in the upper, but I think Clint McKee from Fulton Armory answers it the best:
"
There have been a number of questions lately about looseness of AR-15 upper/lower receiver fit, Accuwedge, etc. Here's my response:
First of all, does looseness or tightness of fit make a difference in accuracy? Maybe, maybe not (how's that for sage advice!). Some say yes, some say it does not matter. In some rifles, it may make a difference, in others, we do know they still shoot well, even though the receivers "flop around."
Personally, I find a rattle trap very annoying, whether it be a rifle, pistol, car, etc. So, at least we do know that the Accuwedge does not hurt accuracy, and eliminates the rattle trap syndrome!
Second, it seems to me that since the sights are on the upper receiver, and you hold the rifle primarily by the lower receiver (pistol grip), that if the upper moves relative to the lower, then the sight picture can move, relative to the hold!
I think this statement is critical. If the sight picture is moving, then all other bets are off. IF the sight picture is the same, I would believe that there is no other issue with sloppy fit.
Thirdly, all the engineers & physicists on this group know that when things can move freely, they will, when subjected to a force. If the upper & lower receivers are dancing all over town each & every time the recoil energy is transferred, then is it not unreasonable to assume that the upper & lower receiver take down pin holes are getting an unreasonable amount of wear from being shocked up & down, back & forth, left & right? The pins are steel & the receivers are aluminum. Guess who loses the battle over time?
"
Free movement isn't always bad. Some shooters have found that free recoil is the most accurate and consistent way to shoot some rifles. Yes, the pin holes will wear out, but that takes a LONG time in most cases. I've seen uppers and lowers with 20,000 rounds on them, and they still functioned properly. JP talks about some rifles that he has built that have 40,000 plus rounds through them, with the same barrels that still shoot sub MOA!
All that said, I don't like rattles!
Are shorter barrels more accurate? - stokesrj - 02-05-2012
elkbow Wrote:stokes, did you ever read what I said? And why would AMU test like that, why would they eliminate the lower if it has no affect on accuracy?
also, 'regardles of that I still like a tight fit'? why?
guys are you talking about experience or what you read? geez.....
ok, post away, i won't be posting, normally don't get in these debates, i'll stick with what I know and my experience....you stick with what you think or read
I'll leave you with a parting though, if i'm shooting off of shooting sticks, I have loose takedown pins, forearm is on the sticks. First shot I shoot I apply pressure rearward on the grip, second shot I apply pressure forward on the grip, where is the pressure on the upper? any affect?
Hi Elkbow,
My objective was not to debate or offend but to share what I know to be true.
I compete with the top shooters in the AMU several times a year. I know them personally and we discuss such things regularly. The reason they test the way they do is because they already understand that upper to lower fit is of no consequence and focus on testing the factors that truly matter.
I have also personally tested this issue, and have confirmed that unlike the bolt rifle, or M1A or Garand where receiver movement absolutely destroys accuracy, in the AR platform it clearly does not.
Sorry if I came off in an offensive way, it wasn't my intent.
Bob
Are shorter barrels more accurate? - Tooreal - 02-05-2012
Hello, I really want to add my thoughts on this "for what it's worth", because I remember the day I found out that the loose rattling upper on my Colt AR -15 Shorty really didn't make any difference in the accuracy at all.:confused: That went against everything that I had been told, and thought at the time! But it was one of my best friends that was a Ranger and Sniper when he was in the service, he had also showed me many ways to help me shoot my pistols & rifles better. This was in the mid to late 80's so I put it to the test.. I loaded some Nosler Solid Base Boat Tail 22 Caliber 50 Grain Ballistic Tip Bullets,(I still have about Half a Box) I'm holding it in my hand. I probably used Accurate Powder, Winchester or Bullseye and worked up the most accurateload for the rifle.. I remember shooting it at 25 yards to zero it in, then moving it out to 100 yards.. I still remember after walking up to look at the 100 yard Target and looking at it, I held the rifle in my hand and wobbled it to hear it rattle. I was absolutely floored because of what I had learned!!! Then I realized that my scope was mounted onto the carry handle (which is on the upper) just above the Barrel. The peep sights are on the upper just above the barrel, so in Reality the upper is the only thing that really matters for accuracy is the upper, other than perhaps a custom trigger set, after you have pulled the trigger which allows the hammer to drop against the firing pin that hits the primer igniting the powder & that explodes making pressure push the bullet out of the barrel.
Sorry, I got off track. :confused:
That's when I found out that no matter how much rattle your rifle has, as long as the barrel is not burned-up your probably OK..
I lived in the country at the time and was surrounded by fields with fence rows that divided the fields for cattle years before I moved in.
Well I began shooting Crows with my little Colt AR using these little Ballistic Tip bullets, the crow's would literally explode when I hit them and they were 150+ yards away from where I was shooting from.. My neighbors would request 1 crow every year when they'd plant the corn in their garden:confused: . The crow's would pull the corn out of the ground just as it would begin to sprout. :mad: So my neighbors would request a crow & I would get them one & they would tie the deceist bird to a 6 foot stake & use a stick to keep it's wings partially open.
My neighbors said that crows would come close, but once they saw the bird on the stake, they would fly away & never come around again..
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Are shorter barrels more accurate? - noone - 02-09-2012
I have found that if I eliminate all play between upper and lower receiver, I get better accuracy, so that is what I do.
Of course, the military has far looser requirements for accuracy than I do. The military's willingness to accept play between upper and lower receiver may mean that the rifle's accuracy still falls within acceptable limits. And that is fine for them.
To each their own, but for me, I get better results when I eliminate play between upper and lower, so that is what I will continue to do. Your mileage may vary.