+- 6.5 Grendel Forum (https://65grendel.com)
+-- Forum: GENERAL FIREARMS DISCUSSION (https://65grendel.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=38)
+--- Forum: Cartridges (https://65grendel.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=18)
+--- Thread: 25 Grendel or 25 BR (/showthread.php?tid=17857)
25 Grendel or 25 BR - LRRPF52 - 01-02-2019
Kilco Wrote:I've had such amazing luck with the 6 grendel, you have sparked my interest with this.
Velocity is where I'm a skeptic. Not a doubter, just a skeptic.
I've got to look at my data, but I believe I'm pushing the 110 SMK 2640 from a 22" barrel, and it's a warmish load.
Yes. We currently are able to get 2500-2600fps with 129-130gr from a 24" Grendel using CFE223 or LVR.
With a beefed up action and more allowable COL, I see 2500fps with the .257" 131gr as realistic.
With the BR Improved/Dasher-like case, I don't think 2700fps is out of reach at all.
They're currently getting 2940fps from .257 CM and .257x47 Lapua, and 3140fps from 25x284 with 1/7.75" twist.
They confirmed BC at 1000yds with an Oehler 88.
25 Grendel or 25 BR - bj139 - 01-02-2019
The 6.5 Timberwolf has already been done. Only .007" bigger bullet than the 25 Timberwolf.
25 Grendel or 25 BR - kmon - 01-02-2019
We were discussing this bullet on another forum and Logan co-owner of blackjack bullets chimed in. Here is his post from that site
Quote:This is Logan, co-owner of Blackjack Bullets. Just wanted to poke my head in here and answer questions and provide transparent answers for you guys.
No there aren't any factory 25 cal rifles with 1:7-1:8 twist barrels to shoot the 131 ACE's. We know that and our target market isn't the hunter that has a 257 WBY that shoots 7 rounds a year at a paper plate and 2 at a deer. How long have 105-115g 6mms been popular? Until recently how many factory rifles have fast enough twists to fully stabilize them? The market that the 131's are designed for already shoot custom rifles and wear out a barrel or 2 or 3 a year. Barrels are something they are already going to buy weather its a 1:8 6.5, 1:7 6mm or a 1:7 .257 its no different.
On to the BC: We advertise .330 G7 this is not a made up number from a range day trip. We did testing with a 25-284 with 1:7.75" twist bbl through an Ohler 88 system with 1000y TOF that takes out variables such as scope tracking, mirage, shooter error and environmentals. The reasoning behind this is that @ 2940 fps (a velocity obtainable out of a x47 case) the SG is 1.5. That is just on the edge of "fully stable" which is not optimal for best BC numbers. We wanted it this way, Why? Because we wanted to advertise the actual number from testing in sub optimal conditions so that anyone that spends their hard earned money on our product is pleasantly surprised when they see results better than advertised, completely opposite of the industry norm. There are some very reputable shooters out there with our bullets (bought on their own dime) with 1:7 or 1:7.25" barrels that reports are consistently .340-.350 G7 in real world shooting at distances out to 1800y.
To the comment about the bullets "it would be one of the most picky bullets to dial in" We have only had 2 customers up to this point having concerns with this. One ended up being an issue with using old brass that had been necked up and down multiple times between 6.5 and 6mm, a donut had formed and once that was taken care off accuracy was great. The other has just recently been brought up and we are working with them to figure it out. Mark Gordon did an initial review of them with his version of "seating depth first" load development. He tested from .000 to .095" off and determined that they shot best at .035" off but had good accuracy throughout the test.
We understand the skepticism and actually welcome it, we are not trying to bring in customers to buy once and be disappointed with results and never come back. We want to bring the best product that we possibly can to a currently neglected segment of the market and have customers that can't get enough of the advantages that it brings to the table.
25 Grendel or 25 BR - Sticks - 01-03-2019
bj139 Wrote:I just remembered this.
https://www.maddogweapons.com/65-timberwolf.html
That is impressive. Wonder why that has not taken off yet.
25 Grendel or 25 BR - bj139 - 01-03-2019
Sticks Wrote:That is impressive. Wonder why that has not taken off yet.
They get 200fps more because of the bigger case volume. It seems like a small increase but I guess velocity squared makes it bigger.
25 Grendel or 25 BR - LRRPF52 - 01-03-2019
Any cartridge that requires more than a single operation to make brass will have a difficult time gaining popularity even among the tiny percentage of the market that likes to wildcat, until it gets enough interest to gain SAAMI approval.
Some of the cartridges that started out as wildcats and became popular in the target shooting/competitive, hunting, and even military circles:
* 6.5x284 SAAMI spec'd as 6.5x284 Norma
* 6.5 Panther or 6.5-08 A-Square spec'd as .260 Remington
* 7mm/308 became 7mm-08 Remington
* 250 Savage necked down to .22 became the .22-250 Remington
* 7.62x39 necked down to .22 became the .220 Russian
* .220 Russian necked up to 6mm became the 6mm PPC
* 30 TC necked down to 6.5mm became the 6.5 Creedmoor
* .222 Remington with shoulder blown forward became the 5.56x45 and .223 Remington
* .30 Remington necked down to .277" became the 6.8x43/6.8 SPC
* 6mm PPC necked up with shoulder blown forward became 6.5 Grendel
All I can say is wait a few weeks for SHOT and see what new cartridges will be introduced, and what actions are being made for new cartridges that have been done over the past 10 years. Nosler, Federal, and Hornady are always coming up with something new. For every success story, there are many failures. Hornady's 30 TC is a great cartridge, but never took off. Only decades later would it be the basis for the 6.5 Creedmoor's meteoric success.
6.5 Grendel's success is an anomaly since it didn't have a huge ammunition manufacturer behind it from the start, yet it still is probably the fastest-growing alternative chambering for the AR15. It certainly is the one to beat for performance in all the industry standard chamberings that will work in a standard AR15 receiver set.
In order to beat the Grendel, the magazine well and COL has to grow. The WSSM uppers are not standard, nor are the barrel extensions. Mags are single presentation feed, low capacity.
Right now, the 6.5 Grendel brings performance that exceeds the needs of most shooters, but those of us who like to experiment and push the capabilities further will always have some degree of wanderlust.
I've always wanted a .257" bore since my Grandfather was so fond of the .257 Roberts, and quarter bore just seems to be a really nice balance point between 6mm and 6.5mm. Now that projectile selection is expanding, I think it's worth pursuing on the developmental side of things.
25 Grendel or 25 BR - Kilco - 01-03-2019
As you and I have talked about In the past LRRP52, the 30 Rem AR would be the ultimate upper/cartridge to wildcat with.
I was on a kick to make a 6.5 or 6mm wildcat with my 30 Rem AR. But I couldn't even get my hands on a single magazine or bolt, so I gave up quickly. I had a really nice CS rep from DPMS even searching thier old warehouses and came up with nothing... the 30 RAR has almost the same capacity as a 6.5x47L.
Speaking of such, what's that wildcat the grouchy guy at ARP makes with the 270? I'm not sure what he is doing regarding the bolt/barrel extension but I believe he is necking the 6.5x47L up to 270 and running it in a small frame AR.. I'm not savvy on the details and I know it's not very popular, but in regards to what you want to do with a quarter bore would that be applicable?
25 Grendel or 25 BR - SightedIn - 01-04-2019
Sticks Wrote:That is impressive. Wonder why that has not taken off yet.
Fireforming keeps me away many cool calibers...
25 Grendel or 25 BR - LRRPF52 - 01-05-2019
Kilco Wrote:As you and I have talked about In the past LRRP52, the 30 Rem AR would be the ultimate upper/cartridge to wildcat with.
I was on a kick to make a 6.5 or 6mm wildcat with my 30 Rem AR. But I couldn't even get my hands on a single magazine or bolt, so I gave up quickly. I had a really nice CS rep from DPMS even searching thier old warehouses and came up with nothing... the 30 RAR has almost the same capacity as a 6.5x47L.
Speaking of such, what's that wildcat the grouchy guy at ARP makes with the 270? I'm not sure what he is doing regarding the bolt/barrel extension but I believe he is necking the 6.5x47L up to 270 and running it in a small frame AR.. I'm not savvy on the details and I know it's not very popular, but in regards to what you want to do with a quarter bore would that be applicable?
MDWS has a full line of different case-based wildcats for the AR15, starting with .223 cats, 6.8 cats, and shortened x47 Lapua cats.
![[Image: mdws-wildcat-line-up_orig.jpg]](https://www.maddogweapons.com/uploads/6/6/8/0/6680565/mdws-wildcat-line-up_orig.jpg)
25 Grendel or 25 BR - Djgrendel - 01-05-2019
Been wanting a heavy, slick bc bullet for my 25-06. The blackjack could be it. The rifle needs a new tube anyway so I might as well twist it tight. The 25 cal has been forgotten by bullet mfg for to long as far as the long range game goes. This pleases me greatly. An extended COL in the grendel case should be a great combination for the mini bolt rifles.
25 Grendel or 25 BR - Kilco - 01-06-2019
Djgrendel Wrote:Been wanting a heavy, slick bc bullet for my 25-06. The blackjack could be it. The rifle needs a new tube anyway so I might as well twist it tight. The 25 cal has been forgotten by bullet mfg for to long as far as the long range game goes. This pleases me greatly. An extended COL in the grendel case should be a great combination for the mini bolt rifles.
Hornady makes a .257 110gr ELD-X with a .460 bc. That's no slouch. Actually should be able to go a little faster than a 6 Grendel in equal barrel lengths.
That would make for a hell of a hunting gun...
Damnit Paul... your spending my money again.. I've been looking for an excuse to purchase Aero Precisions January OD builders kit...
I wonder if I could con redding into making me a FL 257 Grendel die.... Its so close in diameter, I bet you could neck down 6.5 Grendel brass without turning. Pretty sure a 6.5 Grendel seater would work just fine..
What twist would I need with an 18" barrel to stabilize it?
25 Grendel or 25 BR - grayfox - 01-06-2019
Kilco what's the length of that eldx? estimate 2600 ft/s out of the barrel and the JBM twist calculator.... gets you good twist rates. use 0.152 as a best guess for the plastic tip length...
here's a guesstimate from that site: note, Anything over 1.6 is supposed to be good.
All of these 3 were "green" ie, JBM says they're gtg.
with 110 grs, 1.120 est length (from the .257 Berger 115 VLD is 0.465BC), 0.152 tip length, 8-10 twist assumed, 2600 ft/s, stability of
8T: 2.461 so very stable at that MV and 8-T.
9T: 1.944
10T: 1.575 (but still green-jbm)
At faster MV's the stability will be higher than these calcs.
ps, that Berger 257-115 VLD Berger says its min is 1:10.
25 Grendel or 25 BR - Msalm - 01-07-2019
Here's another option on the 25's. BIB's bullets makes some very accurate benchrest grade pills in multiple calibers and offers a 110gr 25 cal bthp with a bc of .52...
https://bibullets.com/products/
25 Grendel or 25 BR - LRRPF52 - 01-07-2019
JLK also has a .257" 108gr VLD at .500 BC.
6mm 105 grain VLD
.257 108 grain VLD
6.5mm 140 and 130 grain VLD
![[Image: 24-25-26%20Bullets.jpg]](http://www.swampworks.com/jlk/images/24-25-26%20Bullets.jpg)
Every time I have looked at those ranges of BC, the improvements (if any) are marginal or non-existent.
With the 131gr ACE, the external ballistics and terminal energy are very palpable, but require a new action and magazine really.
25 Grendel or 25 BR - Brakeman - 01-29-2019
25 Grendel, the thought puts a smile on my face...so who does [AR] barrels for this...?
25 Grendel or 25 BR - Brakeman - 01-30-2019
Kilco Wrote:As you and I have talked about In the past LRRP52, the 30 Rem AR would be the ultimate upper/cartridge to wildcat with.
I was on a kick to make a 6.5 or 6mm wildcat with my 30 Rem AR. But I couldn't even get my hands on a single magazine or bolt, so I gave up quickly. I had a really nice CS rep from DPMS even searching thier old warehouses and came up with nothing... the 30 RAR has almost the same capacity as a 6.5x47L.
Speaking of such, what's that wildcat the grouchy guy at ARP makes with the 270? I'm not sure what he is doing regarding the bolt/barrel extension but I believe he is necking the 6.5x47L up to 270 and running it in a small frame AR.. I'm not savvy on the details and I know it's not very popular, but in regards to what you want to do with a quarter bore would that be applicable?
I've ponder similarly Kilco, but rather than using the scarce Remington 30AR brass with its weirdo base size, why not go to 450 Bushmaster brass from Hornady and/or StarLine? That way you'd have a more standardized .473" base size making the AR BCG bolt head an easy no drama component. Would think starting out with a straight wall case would provide more options as well. The 30RAR uses a sloping 25º shoulder, could a 30º be more advantageous?
All of which to say there are a pethora of options out there conceptually, would be interesting to explore the best path forward in the AR15 platform. Would love to see this type of development in the oft overlooked 25 caliber configuration.
25 Grendel or 25 BR - LRRPF52 - 01-30-2019
Joe and I had a long sit-down with Dave Manson of Manson Reamers to discuss throat configuration.
My perspective is that in 2019, the .257 bore and projectile options is an open field/clean slate, as there haven't been many modern bullets made for it, the 131gr ACE and 110gr ELD-X being exceptions.
Existing rifles all have loose twists ideal for short, flat-based 75gr-117gr bullets that haven't been dusted off much since the 1980s, coming from a bygone era of .257 Bob and .25-06, and even the .250-3000 Savage.
My vision involves a 21st Century Quarterbore that has performance like a 140gr class 6.5mm, but with recoil and blast characteristics more like a 6.5 Grendel, fired from as small of an action as possible (AR15 and micro actions).
The guy that got the 131gr ACE rolling is really targeting the PRS and LR hunting crowds, with necked down .257"x47mm Lapua and .257 Creedmoor cartridges, with some testing done on the .257x.284 Norma as well.
I'm not looking at those short action cartridges because I don't want the muzzle blast, climb, and recoil associated with them that will be present in a lightweight rifle if we chamber in something the size of the AR15.
We're also looking at benchmarking shorter barrel length as a baseline assumption, rather than 24" barrels because I personally have next to no interest in or use for a 24" pipe outside of a competitive environment. I like a compact overall weapon profile, especially taking suppressed use into consideration.
It will come down to a balance and series of compromises between:
Barrel length
Overall weapon compactness
Working pressure
Recoil
Muzzle Climb
Case capacity
Magazine feed/cartridge stack lift characteristics
Wind drift and momentum at 1000yds
25 Grendel or 25 BR - Brakeman - 02-02-2019
We're on the same page here. A 20" barrel seems to be a decent compromise in performance vs portability out hunting.
So what about AR15 compatible cartridges like the 257 Bobcat?
25 Grendel or 25 BR - MDWS - 02-20-2019
I can get you to 2.39" with an SPC Case, Grendel case or .308 case!
25 Grendel or 25 BR - bwaites - 02-21-2019
Hmmmm....why not a Savage MSR10? Barely larger than an AR15. Already has the right bolt head for Creed .257.