Mutt Wrote:Ya know, if you have a problem with the term muscle memory, don't blame me. I didn't invent the term.


However, I know you know perfectly well what I am referring to when I use the term "muscle memory". It's a been used a long time and is an excepted term.

Enjoy.

SG4247 Wrote:I am acquainted with a former Olympic shooter who went through some extensive leading edge training.

When I asked him what his secret to accurate shooting was and he said simply, "1000 dry fires a day".

I was floored. That is a quite a lot of practice!

That's how important practice and repetition was considered at that time.

LR1955 Wrote:SG:

1K dry fires a day? I wonder who keeps count.

Maybe an Olympian but even then, difficult for me to believe. That would be about six or eight hours of dry firing.

I use a SCATT Biathlon machine for dry firing. I try to go 15 strings prone and 15 standing per session. Takes me about 90 minutes and that is rapid fires. I imagine slow fire would take about six or eight hours for 1K rounds if the shooter would not go catatonic from sheer boredom after about two hours of it. The most important strings to me are 1 - 4 then 14 and 15.

There are other things a person can do if they want to spend time. Visualization sessions between dry firing strings is a good one. Bottom line though, 1K dry fires a day is about 700 more than needed. Maybe 800 in terms of slow fire. However, could well be that is how they trained or maybe even train today. Personally, I think it is way too much and will lead to burn out.

Vasux86 Wrote:I have been chewing on this topic for a while and have some thoughts to share.

I'll begin by explaining how this relates to motor plans for complex movements. A motor plan is a complex set of muscle movements that includes the information necessary to orchestrate some movement. The big factors are properly timed amplitude and direction of movement. Imagine all the activity that takes place when you perform a "simple" task such as drawing from a holster. It begins with your brain sending a signal down the spinal cord to execute some motor behavior (e.g., "bend shoulder at some angle, bend elbow at some angle, move thumb to some position, etc."). When the muscle groups receive the motor command, your body is sending feedback to the brain about whether or not the movement is on track (e.g., "elbow is too far back"). Your brain has to integrate this feedback and make corrections or continue with the motor behavior as prescribed. This is a constant feedback loop including motor neurons, sensory neurons, and the brain/spinal cord. Needless to say, complex movements can place an incredible demand on our limited cognitive resources, especially if the movements are unfamiliar and the brain is trying to simultaneously create a motor plan, execute a motor behavior, and integrate feedback. Difficulty is proportional to rate of execution, which causes errors when a new behavior is performed quickly. Hence the phrase- slow is smooth and smooth is fast. That being said, when some behavior is practiced, especially at a slow rate with minimal variability (more on that in a minute), it increases the rate at which one develops a motor plan. A motor plan minimizes variability (i.e., error), which decreases the need to make corrections to some movement and increases the rate at which the behavior can be performed. This also minimizes the use of the limited cognitive resources available at some point in time. Those cognitive resources can then be delegated for use elsewhere. So by practicing some behavior, we are providing the nervous system an opportunity to develop motor plans that are necessary for optimal performance. For more on this, read about how top athletes use focused practice to increase performance.

Secondly, the number of repetitions required to develop a motor plan depends on many factors. Assuming that it requires some set number of repetitions is impossible. For instance, repeating a movement more consistently develops a motor plan more quickly. It allows the brain to "learn" the movement quicker because there is less variability. With less variability there is less need for your brain to figure out what exactly it is supposed to do when it executes some movement. Also, some people are just naturally built to develop motor plans more quickly. We probably all know someone who is blessed with the ability to be explained how to do something, try it a few times, and then is able to execute the movement consistently much quicker than others. The rate at which a person develops a motor plan also depends on various other biological factors- nutrition, how rested the person is, whether the person is distracted by external or internal stimuli at the time of learning, etc. There's more to be said on this, but the main point is that there is too much variability in the environment and biology to say that it requires some set number of repetitions to develop a motor plan or to consider a person to have developed "muscle memory."

In the words of Mr. Gump, that's all I've got to say about that. Cheers.

LR1955 Wrote:Vasux:

Certainly a good theoretical explanation. No argument with the concept at all.

So, now the hard part. Applying it.

If you wish, what can someone apply from your comments that will make them a better marksman?

LR55

LR1955 Wrote:What is 'muscle memory' and how does your muscle know if it is memorizing the right thing?

LR1955

Vasux86 Wrote:I am not aware of any studies that have been done to apply the concepts I shared directly to marksmanship. However, one of the things that has been shown to be improve performance with top athletes is visualization. Stanford ran a study a few years ago with their gymnast. They had one group that went through some regiment where they visualized themselves completing a new movement. Another group did not do any visualization. Athletes in both groups then later performed the movement. The gymnast that visualized themselves successfully completing the movement had higher scores and, get this, increased flexibility. This study, among others, points to the impact the brain can have on motor behavior. I say all that to say that the role of the brain in executing a movement cannot be overstated.

I have not done any research on this topic myself, just gathered information from other sources. From what I have read and shared with you though, it would make the most sense to set up the conditions to enhance learning of some behavior (the motor plan). This could be done by minimizing external and internal distractions, breaking complex movement into segments and later integrating them, beginning learning slowly, and making the behavior as consistent and conspicuous as possible. Visualization is apparently helpful as well. Put simply, minimize variability between repetitions while maximizing the focus on each repetition.

If this doesn't answer your question, would you be able to provide more details about what exactly your trying to figure out? I may be missing the target here, pun intended.

LR1955 Wrote:Vas:

Goals Setting, Imagery / Imagery Scripts, Self Talk, Attentional Focus, Relaxation Techniques -- all work. The problem that I see with many people is that they rarely use any of the Performance Enhancement / Mental Skills techniques in training and so they aren't prepared to use them in competition when it strikes them that they may be of value. Personally I view any of these techniques as a means of focusing attention on the right thing at the right time. It is kind of a survival technique providing the person knows his attention is wandering and that in order to succeed they must focus on the task again. To me this can mean a conscious focus on doing the task (which will be very slow) or simply to push some unnecessary thought out of the conscious and replace it with the thoughts that are necessary to succeed. It is not particularly hard to push a negative thought out of the conscious mind and replace it with something more beneficial to successfully accomplishing a task. The hard part is more likely to be able to focus on a single correct thing done at the right amount of energy (arousal) that allows the body to function without interference from the brain. There are areas where a person can do very well at a task but when they are outside of that zone due primarily to counterproductive thoughts or emotions, the chances of them doing very well disappear and good performance becomes luck more than deliberate.

Anyway, that is my view but to get to your theory, certainly someone can use it to their benefit. This would be by performing the task at a pace where the movements are done as perfectly as possible with feedback from a coach or the person. I have also found out that in order to do so, it pays for the coach or trainer to ensure the person knows what right is. This is where people can really move apart in training concepts. I push what success is, looks like, and how it is quantified or qualified. The goal is to do well, to succeed, even if success is rare at the outset of learning a skill. Of course once they know what success is, they are more prepared to focus their attention on attaining success.

Others tend to focus on physical action -- the movements that they think must take place for the end state to happen. One size fits all approach. It has its advantages in that it is easy to get a large group of people to a mediocre level of performance such as the military. It is poor because it forces people to do something that their body may not be too good at doing for various physical reasons. And, it normally emphasizes a strict process as more important than result. Plus it tends to focus on failure rather than success. The shooter looks in wonderment when he does everything he thinks must be done but misses time and again. This is because he was never taught to succeed, only to act.

So, certainly a person can take your comments and use them to their benefit. Just that slow can be smooth but slow can also be slow. That's why most of the marksmanship problems faced by people on the Forum are because they do not shoot fast enough when they are testing loads. They need to understand that going slow allows the brain time to consciously input its opinion into the shots. So, guy either gets ahead of the trigger or behind the trigger but either way, they tend to do poorly. Then they go to LRRP52 wondering what is wrong with their barrel, optic, trigger, loads. He, he.

Off to my sport for the weekend so be good!

LR55

LRRPF52 Wrote:For those that don't know, LR1955 has basically a lifetime of shooting and coaching experience coming from NRA High Power, retired from Army Special Forces (he was the OIC of 1st Special Forces Group's SOTIC Committee), and spent many years helping train the trainers and snipers/DMs from Panama in the 1970's (he was a Recon Platoon Leader down in the Canal Zone), all the way to the Stryker Brigades at Fort Lewis during OIF.

He also did his Master's Degree in Sports Training Psychology if I remember correctly, and is a wealth of information when it comes down to the minutia of brain-organ interface, feedback, and performance-based physiology, but he balances it well with a heavy leaning towards the blunt reality of keeping things simple that actually work, without going into the detail that he could.

Basically, when you ask what time it is, he just tells you, instead of how to build a watch. He could tell you how to build the watch, but he knows that most of the time, that isn't helpful for the discussion, as it will distract from what the intent is at the time.