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+--- Thread: New California Law Seeks to Limit When Officers Can Shoot (/showthread.php?tid=15866)
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New California Law Seeks to Limit When Officers Can Shoot - stanc - 04-09-2018
TKO Wrote:And would you please put into wording what that "higher degree of certainty" standard should be and how it should be implemented?How about requiring a positive ID that what the suspect has in hand is a real weapon, instead of a fear-induced, imaginary gun?
How about LEOs hiring people who are not so frakking terrified of being shot that they needlessly open fire on unarmed suspects?
TKO Wrote:Police are in the unenviable position of having to react to the stimulus presented. If they fail to react quickly, they could die, bystanders could die.Could die; it's a possibility. OTOH, when they react too quickly, the reality is that they actually do shoot unarmed people (and sometimes bystanders) who didn't need to be shot.
TKO Wrote:I have a suggestion (and I am not being a wise ass): take a "Shoot/Don't Shoot" course that is run with Simunitions ammo. You will soon (painfully) realize how little time you have to react before you or others get shot by the "bad guy". I can pretty much guarantee you that your eyes will be opened to the truth of the matter.I'm not physically able to take a Shoot/Don't Shoot course, so I'll have to decline. However, I am aware of the "truth of the matter."
In this case, it's clear that the cop was so fearful that his imagination caused him to see a gun where there was none.
New California Law Seeks to Limit When Officers Can Shoot - CVCOBRA1 - 04-10-2018
stanc,
you are not physically able to take a Shoot/Don't Shoot course.
you are also not mentally capable of taking any police academy course.
you say you have friends in law enforcement.
why don't you take your Snowflake ideology and tell them your thoughts of this shooting.
you would be the one that if you were a police officer no one would want for a partner.
your hesitation would get someone killed in eventuality.
hopefully it would be you and not your partner.
the more you go on, the more you prove your idiocy.
it might be in your nature to put burrs under saddles or to just stir the pot.
Yes, there are no caps at the beginning of each sentence. Just shows my third grade education is far more superior to yours.
Your tag line: If at first you don't succeed, give up. !!!!!!
Bang!!! You're dead......with your logic, this applies to you.
New California Law Seeks to Limit When Officers Can Shoot - stanc - 04-10-2018
CVCOBRA1 Wrote:stanc,Indeed. I'd say your little temper tantrum shows much more than that.
you are not physically able to take a Shoot/Don't Shoot course.
you are also not mentally capable of taking any police academy course.
you say you have friends in law enforcement.
why don't you take your Snowflake ideology and tell them your thoughts of this shooting.
you would be the one that if you were a police officer no one would want for a partner.
your hesitation would get someone killed in eventuality.
hopefully it would be you and not your partner.
the more you go on, the more you prove your idiocy.
it might be in your nature to put burrs under saddles or to just stir the pot.
Yes, there are no caps at the beginning of each sentence. Just shows my third grade education...
New California Law Seeks to Limit When Officers Can Shoot - CVCOBRA1 - 04-10-2018
Go argue your logic with your law enforcement buddies.
See who's ideas are backed by the people who have your back.
Hesitate ...... Bang! you're dead.........
New California Law Seeks to Limit When Officers Can Shoot - biodsl - 04-10-2018
I want to preface my opinion with this: 99.999% of use of force incidents by police would be avoided if suspects complied with the orders of the officers. Suspects are culpable in their non-compliance. With that said, officers are also responsible for their actions and decisions. It’s possible for you to be legally right and morally wrong. There is an ethical, not just legal, aspect to the use of force.
I have over 20 years of experience as a federal security, police and corrections trainer, including firearms and use of force. Some students were stellar. Some were washed out. Most were in between. The best were the students who’s verbal skills allowed them to de-escalate the threat and avoid a use of force altogether. The best students wanted to end an encounter without a use of force.
At the basic academy, students would go through a pretty intensive 3 or 5 day basic firearms course.
We took students from zero to proficiency in short order. I think we also taught them that every time a weapon was drawn, it was fired because every time they drew their weapon, they fired it.
Many use of force and firearms trainers want you to see threats everywhere. It’s their job to keep you alive. . What they’re teaching students is everyone is out to kill them.
If every simulator scenario you present ends with an armed suspect, you’ve just taught the student that every suspect is armed.
If every role-playing scenario ends in a lethal force situation, you’ve just taught the student that every encounter ends in a use of lethal force.
It’s just as important for a police officer to understand the consequence of shooting an innocent as it is to learn the consequence of being too slow to fire.
CVCOBRA1 Wrote:Hesitate ...... Bang! you're dead.........
This right here is part of the problem.
New California Law Seeks to Limit When Officers Can Shoot - TKO - 04-10-2018
stanc Wrote:How about requiring a positive ID that what the suspect has in hand is a real weapon, instead of a fear-induced, imaginary gun?
Once again, you are requiring that the subject fire a round at police first ... that is the only way for police to absolutely know what the subject is holding is a real weapon. You can never be 100% positive as to what is or is not a firearm . . . think air soft gun . . . looks real, but is fake. Cops still wrong to shoot if they see that pointed at them?
How about LEOs hiring people who are not so frakking terrified of being shot that they needlessly open fire on unarmed suspects?
Me and my brothers are a lot more fearless than you give us credit for. We run to trouble not away and we do our best to do what's right, but we have the absolute right to go home at the end of our shift. It is unfortunate that the gentleman in the video chose to not empty his hands before displaying them. It is also unfortunate that they officer(s) involved have to now live with the memory of the evening.
Could die; it's a possibility. OTOH, when they react too quickly, the reality is that they actually do shoot unarmed people (and sometimes bystanders) who didn't need to be shot.
So, the police officers lives are worth less than everyone elses . . . they [B]could die, too, if they don't react in time to a perceived deadly threat.
Out of curiosity, how many posts of outrage did you upload for any of the police officers ambushed this year? Last year? Any year?[/B]
I'm not physically able to take a Shoot/Don't Shoot course, so I'll have to decline. However, I am aware of the "truth of the matter."
I am sorry that you can not attend a class.
Here is a good 5 minute video for you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfi3Ndh3n-g
In this case, it's clear that the cop was so fearful that his imagination caused him to see a gun where there was none.
God Bless
New California Law Seeks to Limit When Officers Can Shoot - stanc - 04-11-2018
TKO Wrote:I don't have a problem with cops shooting someone who is pointing a gun at them, be it a real firearm or an airsoft replica.stanc Wrote:How about requiring a positive ID that what the suspect has in hand is a real weapon, instead of a fear-induced, imaginary gun?Once again, you are requiring that the subject fire a round at police first ... that is the only way for police to absolutely know what the subject is holding is a real weapon. You can never be 100% positive as to what is or is not a firearm . . . think air soft gun . . . looks real, but is fake. Cops still wrong to shoot if they see that pointed at them?
My issue is with cops who imagine they see a gun where there is no gun, and then shoot the person.
TKO Wrote:I didn't say that all cops are overly fearful. But, it sure seems like some are.stanc Wrote:How about LEOs hiring people who are not so frakking terrified of being shot that they needlessly open fire on unarmed suspects?Me and my brothers are a lot more fearless than you give us credit for.
TKO Wrote:We run to trouble not away and we do our best to do what's right...I think that's probably true of most cops. However, some cops do abuse their power, and some are just thugs with a badge.
I once had a DEA agent threaten to arrest me because of a bumper sticker (on my 4x4) that read: "Smuggling. It's not just a job. It's an adventure."
TKO Wrote:...but we have the absolute right to go home at the end of our shift.Nonsense. There is no such "absolute" right for anyone, regardless of occupation.
TKO Wrote:It is unfortunate that the gentleman in the video chose to not empty his hands before displaying them.The cop did not order him to empty his hands, just show them.
And when the cop's fear caused him to imagine that the cellphone was a gun, he not only didn't order the guy to drop it, he didn't even give him time to. He just opened fire.
TKO Wrote:It is also unfortunate that they officer(s) involved have to now live with the memory of the evening.A consequence of choosing to kill an unarmed man.
TKO Wrote:I never said that. But you sure seem to have been saying that police officers' lives are worth more than everyone else's.stanc Wrote:Could die; it's a possibility. OTOH, when they react too quickly, the reality is that they actually do shoot unarmed people (and sometimes bystanders) who didn't need to be shot.So, the police officers lives are worth less than everyone elses . . .
TKO Wrote:Out of curiosity, how many posts of outrage did you upload for any of the police officers ambushed this year? Last year? Any year?How, in your mind, does calmly discussing an issue equate to a "post of outrage"???
TKO Wrote:Right back at ya, pardner.stanc Wrote:In this case, it's clear that the cop was so fearful that his imagination caused him to see a gun where there was none.God Bless
New California Law Seeks to Limit When Officers Can Shoot - dammitman - 04-11-2018
stanc, your a boat rocker. no one would want you in the fishing boat. you rock the boat just for the sake of doing it,,,,,, I suspect you are a middle aged man who really doesn't have a lot of friends or hobbies. you most likley sit on the internet and look for decent sites like this one to make believe in your life that you have something. yes we will push back on the posts you make as we here are mostly right wing gun enthusiests who want to talk about the 6.5 Grendel AR-15 but will include any 6.5 Grendel rifles as we will include. we will also use the 2A forum to approach you, but you are special, very special. you add nothing to the 6.5 Grendel conversation. nothing at all. do you even have any comments on a 6.5 Grendel? anything at all? I think its time to evaluate your use on the 6.5 GRENDEL forum and maybe let you loose. there are plenty of sites who love to go your direction. we don't need to use the 2A space here debating you to the grain about stuff we get. I love a good argument but you are not that,,,,,,
New California Law Seeks to Limit When Officers Can Shoot - stanc - 04-11-2018
dammitman Wrote:stanc, your a boat rocker. no one would want you in the fishing boat,,,,,,That's okay. I have no desire to go fishing, and I dislike being on boats.
dammitman Wrote:I suspect you are a middle aged man who really doesn't have a lot of friends or hobbies. you most likley sit on the internet and look for decent sites like this one to make believe in your life that you have something.All true. And I live in my mother's basement, too.
dammitman Wrote:yes we will push back on the posts you make as we here are mostly right wing gun enthusiests who want to talk about the 6.5 Grendel AR-15 but will include any 6.5 Grendel rifles as we will include. we will also use the 2A forum to approach you, but you are special, very special. you add nothing to the 6.5 Grendel conversation. nothing at all. do you even have any comments on a 6.5 Grendel? anything at all?The vast majority of my posts have been in the Military forum.
Plus, there is this old article sticky'd in the Grendel ARs forum:
http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?210-Stan-Crist-Article-on-the-Grendel-From-the-old-site
http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?211-Stan-Crist-Article-on-the-Grendel-From-the-old-site-Part-2
dammitman Wrote:I think its time to evaluate your use on the 6.5 GRENDEL forum and maybe let you loose. there are plenty of sites who love to go your direction. we don't need to use the 2A space here debating you to the grain about stuff we get.Yeah, some here are clearly not interested in discussion, but just want an echo chamber where when somebody says something, everyone else responds, "Amen!"