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an incredible new challenge - and we all gotta step up!! - montana - 02-22-2018
just_john Wrote:DC, the concept is good but, considering that most school districts budgets are already tooo thin, it ain't gonna happen. That is a large part of why arming the teachers is popular ( at least here in Texas ). Salaries are already in the budget and space is already provided. Now, just to find the teachers who are willing to step up and have the competence to do so.
In most school districts, the teachers salaries increase when they further their education. Increasing a teachers salary, "if they follow recommended firearm training and monthly practice" could solve this problem very easily. Most people have no idea how their tax money is thrown down the bottomless pit with very little in return for unions and basket weaving credits. It is a simple fix, but the school districts would have to be aboard and direct their funds away from their agenda driven budgets and direct it towards student security.
an incredible new challenge - and we all gotta step up!! - LRRPF52 - 02-22-2018
We don't have a gun problem, we have a school problem.
The school as a social unit (the main argument in favor of government-run schools) took this kid into their midst-an orphan whose adoptive dad died in NYC where they were from.
After that, the mom moved the family down to Florida, like so many New Yorkers do to escape the excessive taxation and cost of living for a more free place to live.
She put the 2 brothers into the local school district.
The perpetrator was bullied and continually victimized, soon walking around with his head down and afraid to make eye contact with other human beings.
He eventually formed a relationship with a female student there, after a life of constant loss of close relationships and abandonment.
Somewhere along the way, his relationship with the girl turned violent, he was involved with some physical altercations with other students, and his adoptive mom died November 1st. He was also caught with firearms-related contraband in his backpack (ammunition).
He was expelled from the school, and went to another school. Some friends of his family's allowed him to live with them, while he apparently was working towards his GED. They also allowed him to store his firearm there, as long as it was locked up. What could go wrong?
Everything points to him wanting to seek revenge for the hurt he experienced at the school, including the rejection from his girlfriend and bullying from other students.
There are literally dozens of statements from other young adults who attended the school who said, "It was no surprise to us. We used to tell him all the time he would be a school shooter some day." There are at least 36 official red flags or witnessed statements related to him intending to do felonious violence against other human beings at the school, including statements on youtube which were reported to the FBI ("I'm going to be a professional school shooter.")
Quote:Students who encountered Cruz said he talked a lot about having fun with firearms, so much so that some joked that if anyone were to attack the school, it would probably be him.
Cruz "threatened to bring the guns to school multiple times," senior Eddie Bonilla said. Other students, he said, "threw jokes around that he'd be the one to shoot up the school."
Students and teachers said Cruz had been a member of the U.S. Army Junior Reserve Officers' Training Corps.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/who-nikolas-cruz-florida-school-shooter-joked-about-guns-worried-n848266
Law Enforcement and School officials were repeatedly warned about these red flags, including multiple statements that he made declaring his intent to shoot up the school.
I guess it only makes sense then that I should be arguing with people about why I need to own AR15s????
Logic-school doesn't teach it. School teaches you to be emotionally-controlled like a Pavlovian dog, while forming negative relationships with peers and authority figures who have zero business being authority figures in your life, as your family's importance in your life is invalidated.
But because our parents were conditioned to go into massive debt to pay for houses only the bank could afford for them, both parents enslaved themselves away from the family to pay the bank's interest and principle on the house, along with auto loan, insane student loans, and credit card debts to buy the latest consumer trend. This ensured that no nurturing adults were in the home during the day to be able to instruct the children anymore like with the GI and Silent Generations.
Most of Generation X became latchkey kids with an empty token family unit. Schools became more and more relied on to feed and supervise children/young adults, while dumbing them down dumber and dumber with each generation. We received a garbage schooling in the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s, that has progressively reached new lows in stupidity and illiteracy.
Even then, I learned how to use then and than, too/two/to, I as a subject and not an object, and other basics in grammar and usage that seem to have disappeared even from the teachers' level of bare bones competency.
This particular school district enacted a policy before the Teyvon Martin incident where felonious and misdemeanor offenses would not be treated as such, as not to add "too much stigma" to young adults in order to "help" them better adjust to society. They turned off all the warning indicators, while agitating an extremely vulnerable young man who they eventually rejected.
Nobody was surprised when he returned for vengeance.
His actions are deplorable, reprehensible, and unacceptable, but to isolate him from the whole picture makes about as much sense as calling for a ban on AR15s....
...because I can make a much more logical argument for cutting any funding for an institution that behaves in such a reckless and damaging manner.
an incredible new challenge - and we all gotta step up!! - LRRPF52 - 02-22-2018
We need to have a sit down and listening session about the root problems here way before we start talking about guns.
School is a breeding ground and pressure-cooker for violence against other human beings, while reinforcing anti-American ideas, and raking home owners over the coals every year for the financing to prop the detrimental system up. Most schools have become nothing but hybrid daycare centers designed to indoctrinate the students into hating their Nation, while physically structuring their behavioral patterns into an easily-controlled and triggered state of mass psychology engineering.
They graduate unable to read in many cases, allergic to mathematics, completely ignorant about their world (geography, history), without even a functional ability in their mother tongue, and no work ethic.
They are taught that our Founding Fathers were terrible human beings, that our Great Nation was built on atrocities against other human beings, and that the grass is greener across the waters, especially in Europe. They are programmed regularly to support socialist domestic and foreign policies with a very identifiable political indoctrination, while not learning about our foundational documents, uniqueness in the world, and global status.
But they are fully convinced on matters such as the 2A and that the NRA are the bad guys.
My mom was a school teacher for decades, including serving as the District Rep for the 2nd largest school district in the entire US. I've seen behind the curtain how rotten school teacher's unions are and what they are about with a front row seat, so don't think this is an anti-teacher position.
an incredible new challenge - and we all gotta step up!! - rabiddawg - 02-23-2018
This actually happened this week at my wife’s school.
6 th grade boy asks teacher to change seats and was told no. Teach knew she would have trouble if she allowed it. Another female student was allowed to change seats; teacher knew it would not cause a problem. The male student proclaimed he “hates” the “sexist” teacher and is “going to shoot up the school”.
Teacher consults the person in charge of discipline who tells her “to just write him up”. Teacher feels that’s not right and consults the councilor. Thank goodness she saw the seriousness of this threat. Police, fire and ambulance showed up. Parents were called and the kid was held out the next day. I hope they all learned a lesson.
an incredible new challenge - and we all gotta step up!! - LR1955 - 02-23-2018
And, according to Fox News, there was an armed police officer just outside the school.
Who heard the shots but did absolutely nothing.
LR55
an incredible new challenge - and we all gotta step up!! - sneaky one - 02-23-2018
You guys remember Steel 89 ? I think he's still on here- He retired from the Miami area police dept- maybe 7 yrs. ago? He told me that he really did the Miami Vice undercover guy- just like the TV show. Well trained. Now he's a kinder garden cop. They lock the school down--- he is the only way in. He's armed. No issues since he's been there.
Many could skip not getting a starbucks coffee, and instead send that $ 5-6 weekly,, or daily, to pay for that guys salary --around the nation to protect our kids.
Also, trust the red flags that pop up upon peoples behaviorisms,,, no person is an island- act upon them, we all hate to rat anyone out- but as L52 stated, this country is a mess with the schooling system. Good write up dude.
Pay attention more often! Have that situational awareness!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We have a big sign leading into the Mpls- St. Paul airport-- If you see something , Say Something! Report it !
I'd rather be embarrassed , than shot dead...
LR55- maybe hearing loss was the issue..?
We just had a shutdown of a possible school shooting plan here in MN. 2 days ago .. Bad Kids got ratted . Stay safe- stay aware. I think it was Orono..
They locked the local schools down for hours. Just north of my spot.
Lack of parenting skills, loose gun safe rules, meth, what else do you want to include ? I'm ready to bug out....
an incredible new challenge - and we all gotta step up!! - LRRPF52 - 02-23-2018
On a scale from 1-10, what influence did the following have on these murders?
(1 for little/no influence, 10 for significant influence)
Perpetrator was an orphan from his bio parents at age 2.
Perp's adoptive father died of heart attack, causing major loss to the family's earning potential.
After his dad died, the family made a major move down to Florida.
Perp's adoptive mom died from pneumonia November 1st, 2017.
Perp was bullied at the school regularly.
Perp was a member of the JROTC and had received multiple awards for outstanding academic performance.
Perp was a member of his school's varsity air rifle team.
In attempts to deal with his behavior issues, he was transferred between schools six times in three years.
In 2014, he was transferred to a school for children with emotional or learning disabilities, and returned to Stoneman Douglas High School two years later.
The Florida Department of Children and Families investigated him in September 2016 for Snapchat posts in which he cut both his arms and said he planned to buy a gun.
State investigators reported Cruz had depression, autism, and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder.
After the State investigation, they assessed that he was not a risk.
Perp's YouTube videos included comments such as "I wanna die Fighting killing shit ton of people", threats against police officers and Antifa, and that he intended to mimic the University of Texas tower shooting.
Perp left a comment on another user's YouTube video on September 24, 2017, stating "Im going to be a professional school shooter", which prompted the user to report him to the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI).
According to FBI agent Robert Lasky, the FBI was unable to identify the commenter after conducting database reviews and checks. (His YouTube name is his actual name.) Mighty fine police work there.
Perp bragged about killing animals.
Perp and his girlfriend became physically-violent with each other.
Perp's girlfriend dumped him.
Perp was told by multiple students throughout his time at the school that he would be a school shooter.
Perp verbalized to many other witnesses that he planned to shoot up the school.
Perp was expelled from the school.
His girlfriend found a new boyfriend.
After numerous threats against the school, local and Federal LE investigators did not interview and confiscate any weapons from the perp, or charge him with making terrorist threats.
He had access to firearms and was able to legally purchase a rifle at age 19.
Within just the past few years, he has experienced life-changing events that result in most marriages falling apart, domestic violence, estrangement, and severe consequences for people who don't have autism and ADHD.
I'm gonna go with AR15.....
an incredible new challenge - and we all gotta step up!! - stanc - 02-23-2018
sneaky one Wrote:You guys remember Steel 89 ? I think he's still on here- He retired from the Miami area police dept- maybe 7 yrs. ago? He told me that he really did the Miami Vice undercover guy- just like the TV show. Well trained. Now he's a kinder garden cop. They lock the school down...The only institutions which I recall ever getting locked down when I was a kid were the prisons.
Now schools, businesses, even entire neighborhoods, get treated like prisons, and locked down.
an incredible new challenge - and we all gotta step up!! - Klem - 02-23-2018
I think we all agree that normal people are not at risk of perpetrating mass murder. Even the more eccentric weirdo's we see around guns have no intention of murdering people. It is the extremely disaffected fruit cakes with no moral compass that want to kill others. The focus on the AR15 is because along with a compromised mindset it is a common thread in all these shootings. You can focus on the compromised mindset, on the means, or both. You can also focus on the symptoms (before it happens), or the cure (mitigation when it happens). Complicating this is a country that valorizes individual freedoms and cultural identity through gun ownership. Restricting the freedoms of fruit cakes is akin to restricting gun ownership. There will be resistance either way.
What speed limit on the road is fair when the majority of road users are good drivers?
an incredible new challenge - and we all gotta step up!! - bj139 - 02-23-2018
Lrrpf52 +1
an incredible new challenge - and we all gotta step up!! - sneaky one - 02-23-2018
Still no excuse for anyone to consider murder. We were all kids, we got pushed around, we , well I did- find a way to punch back.
Never planned an attack , never lost sleep over a small issue, . It's just insane lately- what would the fix include.... if a fix is possible.?
Get all the relatives involved with problematic children, young adults. Evaluate them . Yes, judge them! Take action! Help save some lives.
Do not keep a kid in the basement as a Troll! Good grief...
an incredible new challenge - and we all gotta step up!! - montana - 02-23-2018
Klem Wrote:What speed limit on the road is fair when the majority of road users are good drivers?
Confiscating firearms from law abiding gun owners to prevent mass shootings, is like confiscating automobiles from sober drivers to prevent drunk driving.
an incredible new challenge - and we all gotta step up!! - biodsl - 02-23-2018
There's a growing school of thought that sensationalized and never-ending news coverage is a great incentive to mass shooters. Kids who feel disconnected and invisible to the world understand that a way to become visible is through a body count. The media will run the story until they extract every last piece of emotion, income and political advantage. The shooter becomes a household name. A couple of psychologists say that the desire of fame or infamy is a common bond of these murderers and they've labeled the behavior of the news as Media Contagion. You can read a brief article here. https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2016/08/media-contagion.aspx
The Newtown shooter took this to new heights. From the book The War on Guns by Dr. John Lott (pg 125): ...the Newtown killer, spent two-and-one-half putting together a report on mass public shootings. Law enforcement described "A sickeningly thorough 7-foor long, 4-foot wide spreadsheet with names, body counts, and weapons from previous mass murders and even attempted killings. 'I sounded like a doctoral thesis, that was the quality of the research,' an anonymous law enforcement veteran said." Lanza also collected information on media coverage for each killing. He observed that attacks with more deaths received greater media coverage...Take this report from CBS Evening News:
Sources say Lanza saw himself as being in direct competition with Anders Breivik, a Norwegian man who killed in July 2011...Two officials who have been briefed on the Newtown, Conn. investigation say Lanza wanted to top Breivik's death toll...
It sounds like the 1st, not the 2nd Amendment is at work here. Perhaps we should ban showing these murderer's faces or mentioning their names. There is some precedent for this. From the Atlantic:
You might not have noticed, but the mass media rarely reports on suicides, particularly teen suicides. When it does, the coverage is careful, understated, and dampened. This is no accident: Following guidelines endorsed by the Centers for Disease Control and National Institutes of Mental Health, the media carefully and voluntarily avoids sensationalizing such deaths especially among teenagers. They almost never make the news unless the person is a public figure; methods of suicide are rarely mentioned; suicide pacts are not reported upon.
This is for good reason: Suicide, especially among teens, is contagious. It's a morbidly attractive idea that offers an established path of action for a troubled youngster. And we know from research in many fields that establishing a path of action -- a complete narrative in which you can visualize your steps and their effects -- is important in enabling follow-through.
an incredible new challenge - and we all gotta step up!! - Klem - 02-23-2018
montana Wrote:Confiscating firearms from law abiding gun owners to prevent mass shootings, is like confiscating automobiles from sober drivers to prevent drunk driving.
That's one way of looking at it. The anti's know that's unreasonable so they will just focus on banning performance vehicles. In this case all high-power semi-auto's and not just the cosmetic bans in CA. They will argue that it won't eliminate this sort of thing but it will cut down the frequency (and frankly they are right). Depends on how resourceful the perp is on getting his hands on one of the thousands of underground guns that would still be circulating. Or maybe he will still have his own squirrelled away. Or maybe he can't access an assault rifle so he goes to Plan B, which is less efficient but still deadly.
Personally, I think arming more school staff is the only way forward. It also acts as a disincentive. Having one armed school officer is not enough. He chose not to fight anyway. Bullet-proof safe rooms and ballistic shields. IFAK packs and training. Schools practise earthquake drills but this is more likely now. What a sad state of affairs that it has come to this but the precedent has been set and cowards copy each other.
an incredible new challenge - and we all gotta step up!! - just_john - 02-23-2018
Bd +1 !!!!!
an incredible new challenge - and we all gotta step up!! - Keef - 02-23-2018
How many Hollywood movies are out there that glorify a person being pushed to the edge and then killing their way out of it? I don't have the number but I'd guess its pretty high.
an incredible new challenge - and we all gotta step up!! - bj139 - 02-23-2018
When I was young, there were a few older kids who stopped bullying among the younger kids.
Today, they would be accused of bullying and would be suspended. The good often get punished unfairly.
All this while the teachers have learned the best thing is to turn their backs and pretend they are blind or they might be suspended.
The left has surely created a hellhole for everyone.
an incredible new challenge - and we all gotta step up!! - grayfox - 02-23-2018
In all that list of 1 to 10's, the one that I would rank (didn't see it there but maybe I missed it) right at the TOP is the shooter's own will and decisions.
Murder comes from the heart, rage comes from the heart. Lots of other things can amplify it or try to direct or mis-direct it, but the person himself/herself carries the accountability, no one else makes him or her do it. There was a guy a couple years ago who literally ran over students at UNC in North Carolina with an SUV... the 2 perps in Boston used nails and pressure cookers... we have to be willing as a society to recognize that it is the person who needs to be identified, countered and or taken out if need be.
Now when it comes to the weapons debate I personally don't mind if bump stocks are restricted/removed... my theory is that a gun should be held to its (reasonable) original intended design... bump stocks, no. 100-round drums... not really a worry to me if they are gone. 20-30 round mags... leave alone b/c they are part of the original design and intent. regular mags for a glock... ok even if 13, 17, 19. A 50-round mag that sticks way down out of the glock.. not so much. I know some may ask where do you draw the line but I think there is a reasonable design line that can be identified.
Again these are my positions and opinions.
Will enacting these kinds of restrictions satisfy the libs? Heck no. But it's never been my calling in life to gain their approval.
Their ideas, like any other kind of cancer, don't stop, but that does not mean that we can't have and implement some ideas of our own regardless.
O, and deputize, train and indemnify school or hired personnel to be armed and respond with deadly force to shooting threats. Just like the guards are who the libs hire for their own private schools!!!!
Kids who post about that kind of stuff, shooting up whatever, treat them like lawbreakers would be in the airport. I remember when airports didn't have any of the security stuff... I still fly even with the security, so we can live with upping the protective profiles of our schools and treating a threat of mass shooting as a crime, an adult crime.
an incredible new challenge - and we all gotta step up!! - just_john - 02-23-2018
I reflect back into the early and mid 1960's when I was in high school. During dove season, there was hardly a car or pick-up in the parking lot that did not have a shotgun in it. Pick-ups had 'em in the back window. The idea of bringing one into the school to do harm was totally unthinkable. I knew a guy who carried a 10" butcher knife ( on him ) because he didn't have a car and worked in a meat market in the afternoons and this was his "pet" knife. We all knew it. The teachers knew it. And we all went about our lives. If there was a beef between some folks, it was either settled across the street or the coach settled it with the "board of education".
So what has changed in the last 50 years? There are only two variables, the who or the what! Guns may look a little different but they still work the same. That just leaves the people. So how people changed? Well, the media makes heroes of the bad guys. Video games make heroes of the bad guys. The criminal justice system seems to look the other way, mostly because they get persecuted / prosecuted for doing their jobs properly. And kids are taught to take on no sense of responsibility if something horrible is done, either by fact or intent.
And now they scream for justice when their own gets out of hand. I hear a lot of talk and speeches about changing or restricting the tools but very little about restricting the sources of persuasion that says this kind of thing is OK. If they want to change things, let their economics disuade the video game creators to stop making "Grand Theft Auto", stop the media from publicizing the 15 seconds of glory for some idiot who walks into a school building with evil intent.
an incredible new challenge - and we all gotta step up!! - montana - 02-23-2018
just_john Wrote:I reflect back into the early and mid 1960's when I was in high school. During dove season, there was hardly a car or pick-up in the parking lot that did not have a shotgun in it. Pick-ups had 'em in the back window. The idea of bringing one into the school to do harm was totally unthinkable. I knew a guy who carried a 10" butcher knife ( on him ) because he didn't have a car and worked in a meat market in the afternoons and this was his "pet" knife. We all knew it. The teachers knew it. And we all went about our lives. If there was a beef between some folks, it was either settled across the street or the coach settled it with the "board of education".
So what has changed in the last 50 years? There are only two variables, the who or the what! Guns may look a little different but they still work the same. That just leaves the people. So how people changed? Well, the media makes heroes of the bad guys. Video games make heroes of the bad guys. The criminal justice system seems to look the other way, mostly because they get persecuted / prosecuted for doing their jobs properly. And kids are taught to take on no sense of responsibility if something horrible is done, either by fact or intent.
And now they scream for justice when their own gets out of hand. I hear a lot of talk and speeches about changing or restricting the tools but very little about restricting the sources of persuasion that says this kind of thing is OK. If they want to change things, let their economics disuade the video game creators to stop making "Grand Theft Auto", stop the media from publicizing the 15 seconds of glory for some idiot who walks into a school building with evil intent.
Well said. The outrage never seems to be directed at the source of the problem. The miscreant who did the killing, the cowardly security guard, or the enablers and supporters of the failed leftist social experiment from the 60's.