VASCAR2 Wrote:This subject has come up before on this forum a few times since I’ve been a member. The conversation gave me an incentive to conduct a simple nonscientific test comparing a 16” 6.5 Grendel AR-15 to a 5.56 AR-15. I have almost two identical rifles, one in 6.5 Grendel and one in 5.56/223. I know the OP mentioned a pistol caliber 6.5 Grendel compared to a 5.56 pistol.

From my 35 years in LE and after conducting this test my recommendation is either will work. The emphasis should be on training/practice and testing your equipment to know it’s capabilities. In a self defense context I think 200 round reliabilty is acceptable.

I put more value on training and tactics over a particular cartridge especially with rifle/carbine/pistols in rifle calibers. Once I was authorized to use an AR-15 in LE I normally carried aluminum mil spec mags loaded to 28 rounds. If there was any indication a high risk deadly incident was remotely possible I moved my AR-15 from the trunk to the passenger compartment for quick access. If I had time I exited the car with my AR-15 with at least one or two 30 round mags in my back pocket.

Today many Officers have purchased rifle rated ballistic armor in plate carriers with spare mags/ammo attached. If a situation arises the Officers gear up and are more prepared.

This is my personal opinion so take it for what it’s worth, I’d rather be well trained to where I am capable of putting a rifle caliber bullet in my target accurately than a specific caliber. My agency issued bonded core 55 grain JSP Federal TRU (Tactical Urban Defense) for a duty cartridge. My agency has M-16 A-1’s, 16” AR-15’s and M-4 carbines in use. I haven’t run the ballistic but I’d be surprised if this round would not prove effective out to 100 yards out of a 10.5”-12.5” 5.56 pistol.

I put more faith in awareness of surroundings, mental state and preparedness to the difference between a 6.5 Grendel and a AR-15 in 5.56. I can make either work if given enough time and effort. My physical ability today is a handicap for me do to age and retirement.

I’d have no hesitation using my 16” 6.5 Grendel with factory 123 grain A-Max as a LE weapon or a self defense weapon. Most LE encounters with rifles/carbine are at close range usually within 50 yards and rarely beyond 100 yards. In a self defense situation you have to be able to articulate your life or someone else's life is in danger and might prove difficult if your at 100 yards. In actual every day life the the likelihood of shooting in self defense at 100 yards plus is going to rare, plausible but rare. Which ever weapon you decide to use please become familar enough with the weapon to ensure it is reliable and you can use it effectively.

I have numerous rifles and pistols but for convenience and effectiveness I have 16” Tavor that I normally use as a travel companion. I also have a pistol on my person with two spare mags.

Here is a link to the test I mentioned. I’ve lost the photos on photobucket but I’ll try to replace the photos in this thread.


http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?12193-6-5-Grendel-vs-5-56

Sticks Wrote:Anyone who is worried about being in a Vegas Shooter type situation, you are either screwed or 99% chance of survival (PLEASE don't let this thread derail into that discussion - I brought it up as an example). Screwed if the shooter has skill. Survive by keeping your cool and getting off the "X". Cover and concealment, know the difference, and always have an exit strategy or two in mind.

newb Wrote:Ever take a look at the FN five seven? Several of my friends have one and I was very impressed the times I got to send lead down range.

If you want an AR platform for a pistol, then I would go with the 300 blk; I believe being able to reach high velocity in a very short barrel (and still cycle properly) was one of the design goals.

StoneHendge Wrote:Sounds like someone is getting ready for Nov 4. I plan on having the SP101 inside the waistband and the M&P 360CT on the ankle as an added measure. But I'm not terribly worried since the antiFa are spineless and only seem to agitate when they know their targets will be unarmed.

Dcommoncents Wrote:Thanks for the detailed response and link. I agree, very well put. I have zero military or law enforcement experience but have adopted the same mentality you discuss. I live life aware and prepared, but not in a state of paranoia or fear. I've just accepted that bad things can and do happen, and believe that simply accepting that reality and being mentally prepared to react appropriately (including realistic mental rehearsal - not self aggrandizing hero fantasies) is critical. Realistically training is probably the next important step in my view, and of course buying the coolest gear isn't going to overcome training deficiencies.



I'm not an alarmist, but truth be told the vegas situation did make me rethink my prior belief that my 9mm carry pistol would be adequate to engage an attacker in any situation there is a realistic possibility I could encounter. Obviously if I had been in that concert an ar pistol wouldn't be available to me, nor would it be responsible to return fire in that situation, but I can think of others where it might be. As just one example, I live in Pittsburgh where we have long, traffic laden tunnels. It is not unthinkable that some whacko could use a traffic situation like that to create an ambush from which I could not escape and would want more than a compact handgun to deal with. Likely? It wouldn't seem so, but none of these things seem likely until they happen. Indeed, a similar attack was attempted in I believe Houston, and many have predicted that coordinated attacks are going to become an increasingly common tactic. Again, I don't have any hero fantasies, but I want to be equipped to defend myself, my family, and other innocents if I can do so responsibly and without putting myself in danger from first responders.

I also agree that a 5.56/.223 chambered pistol is going to be rather effective within 100 yards, especially with the right projectile selection, but one chambered in 6.5 G, or 300 BO is going to be more so. It sounds like a 6.5 G can be plenty reliable for that use, but like any other system I will have to test the gun and any magazines to make sure. I especially make a point of that for self-defense guns. I ran a couple hundred rounds of different makes of self defense ammo and jhp through my s&w shield without a hiccup before I felt comfortable carrying it. Just a good common sense practice.

Dcommoncents Wrote:.... As just one example, I live in Pittsburgh where we have long, traffic laden tunnels. It is not unthinkable that some whacko could use a traffic situation like that to create an ambush from which I could not escape and would want more than a compact handgun to deal with.... .

VASCAR2 Wrote:This subject has come up before on this forum a few times since I’ve been a member. The conversation gave me an incentive to conduct a simple nonscientific test comparing a 16” 6.5 Grendel AR-15 to a 5.56 AR-15. I have almost two identical rifles, one in 6.5 Grendel and one in 5.56/223. I know the OP mentioned a pistol caliber 6.5 Grendel compared to a 5.56 pistol.

From my 35 years in LE and after conducting this test my recommendation is either will work. The emphasis should be on training/practice and testing your equipment to know it’s capabilities. In a self defense context I think 200 round reliabilty is acceptable.

I put more value on training and tactics over a particular cartridge especially with rifle/carbine/pistols in rifle calibers. Once I was authorized to use an AR-15 in LE I normally carried aluminum mil spec mags loaded to 28 rounds. If there was any indication a high risk deadly incident was remotely possible I moved my AR-15 from the trunk to the passenger compartment for quick access. If I had time I exited the car with my AR-15 with at least one or two 30 round mags in my back pocket.

Today many Officers have purchased rifle rated ballistic armor in plate carriers with spare mags/ammo attached. If a situation arises the Officers gear up and are more prepared.

This is my personal opinion so take it for what it’s worth, I’d rather be well trained to where I am capable of putting a rifle caliber bullet in my target accurately than a specific caliber. My agency issued bonded core 55 grain JSP Federal TRU (Tactical Urban Defense) for a duty cartridge. My agency has M-16 A-1’s, 16” AR-15’s and M-4 carbines in use. I haven’t run the ballistic but I’d be surprised if this round would not prove effective out to 100 yards out of a 10.5”-12.5” 5.56 pistol.

I put more faith in awareness of surroundings, mental state and preparedness to the difference between a 6.5 Grendel and a AR-15 in 5.56. I can make either work if given enough time and effort. My physical ability today is a handicap for me do to age and retirement.

I’d have no hesitation using my 16” 6.5 Grendel with factory 123 grain A-Max as a LE weapon or a self defense weapon. Most LE encounters with rifles/carbine are at close range usually within 50 yards and rarely beyond 100 yards. In a self defense situation you have to be able to articulate your life or someone else's life is in danger and might prove difficult if your at 100 yards. In actual every day life the the likelihood of shooting in self defense at 100 yards plus is going to rare, plausible but rare. Which ever weapon you decide to use please become familar enough with the weapon to ensure it is reliable and you can use it effectively.

I have numerous rifles and pistols but for convenience and effectiveness I have 16” Tavor that I normally use as a travel companion. I also have a pistol on my person with two spare mags.

Here is a link to the test I mentioned. I’ve lost the photos on photobucket but I’ll try to replace the photos in this thread.

http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?12193-6-5-Grendel-vs-5-56

I updated the pictures in this test and the photos should now be visible. I lost the actual pictures when photobucket quit allowing links to forums. I still had the targets but not the pictures showing the misses on the cardboard where the plates were stapled.

Quote:The AR platform is made to feed 223 size cartridges.

Anything else would probably be less reliable.

murfvol Wrote:Good stuff Yoni.

The Profit Joseph Sith Wrote:Good thread I wanted to reply to some comments but apparently 13'000+ characters is to much :p thanks for everyone's input though I was glad some people posted some mag info. And special thanks to vascar2, yoni, SH, and OF COURSE LRRPF52