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+--- Thread: I know this is the wrong place but!!! (/showthread.php?tid=12527)
I know this is the wrong place but!!! - Ten Ring - 01-17-2017
The bolt fractured . I can not get bolt or brass out of the rifle.
They are 165 I mis spoke the 168 I use on occasion for paper punching are BTHP match kings
I know this is the wrong place but!!! - LR1955 - 01-17-2017
TR:
It is very difficult to do much with the picture you took.
I think that Tex can figure out the most likely cause if he can see some decent pictures.
You got one through already so can you try to get a few more?
Take one of the entire rifle so we can see what part or parts blew off.
Then take a close up of the area again.
If there is a bulge in the barrel, take a picture but make it cover enough of the rifle that we know where the bulge is located.
Did any of the cartridges in the magazine go off? If so and you can find pieces of them, try to put the pieces back together and take a picture of them.
Finally, a picture of any pieces or the rifle that you found.
From the one picture you took, it appears that the side of the receiver where the magazine is located is what blew off. Hard for me to understand with a bolt rifle unless you had a slam fire just before the bolt locked totally into battery.
LR55
I know this is the wrong place but!!! - Ten Ring - 01-17-2017
I have problems get pictures on here it keeps telling me the files are to large and when I shrink the down well you see what you get. I Am working on trying to fix that . No bulge in the Barrel
I know this is the wrong place but!!! - Ten Ring - 01-17-2017
I trying to get pictures resize so I can up load then to forum. No bulge in Barrel and no rounds in mag. Went off
I know this is the wrong place but!!! - Ten Ring - 01-17-2017
Hope theses are better
I know this is the wrong place but!!! - Klem - 01-17-2017
It is not my experience that incipient case separation causes such damage. Case separation from things like too much headspace or simply worn out from being loaded too many times. I have however seen similar damage to a gun caused by accidentally overloading the cartridge.
I know this is the wrong place but!!! - Texas - 01-17-2017
In looking at picture 3 it appears that the cartridge case is visible and in picture 1 the bolt handle appears to be in the full forward position, if that is the case, then the bolt face is missing. The only real way to determine the cause of the catastrophic failure is to examine the grain structure of the steel under an electron microscope which is beyond the capabilities of the vast majority. I would suggest you contact Savage and arrange to send it to them for a full analysis.
Having said that:
1. Is the powder that you loaded with new or old? If it is new, have you loaded this load with the same lot number before. A given powder can change 10% within range and still be considered to be the same powder, so if one lot is on the low end of the spectrum and the other is on the high end of the spectrum, the effective difference between lots in this case could be as much as 8.0 gr.
2, Catastrophic failures can be the results of an increase in micro-fractures to the point that they finally give way. A micro-fracture could be caused by an overload at some point and the continual stressing will finally cause it to give way, again this can be determined by micro-structure analysis.
3. In picture 3 there appears to be some brass flowing which would be indicative of an overloaded case. There are also what appear to be heat striations on the front of the visible bolt, it may be powder residue, but it does appear to be blue in color. This was probably not the result of this single incident but may be cumulative.
Please send the rifle to Savage for analysis and let us know their findings
I know this is the wrong place but!!! - Ten Ring - 01-17-2017
Over charge was my first guess. But still not sure how I could have done it unless my scale was not calibrated properly.
But with what I have learned from you about 300 brass being so inconsistent between manufacturers, Has me woundering if I just did not hit the perfect storm of a little to much power and the wrong brass with a old wepon with a little ware and BANG!!!!
I know this is the wrong place but!!! - Ten Ring - 01-17-2017
But I do thank you all on your input. And as soon as I get glass on my Grendel i will get some pictures of groups and stuff
I know this is the wrong place but!!! - Ten Ring - 01-17-2017
It was fresh powder and the first I have used it have always used RL19 but nave been unable to find it was talked int to trying it. I am in the proses of opening a case with savage arms and returning the Rif for their inspection.
Most important to is to find out if I did by either ignorance or Neglect cause the problem, so I can learn from it !!!
I know this is the wrong place but!!! - LR1955 - 01-17-2017
Ten Ring Wrote:It was fresh powder and the first I have used it have always used RL19 but nave been unable to find it was talked int to trying it. I am in the proses of opening a case with savage arms and returning the Rif for their inspection.
Most important to is to find out if I did by either ignorance or Neglect cause the problem, so I can learn from it !!!
TR:
Not sure if you will ever know. I have yet to experience a rifle manufacturer who will guarantee their rifles if someone handloaded the ammo. I doubt they will do the type of testing needed to determine exactly what happened due to costs.
You pulled the trigger and the side of the receiver blew out. Obviously you had excessive pressure. For a handloader this can be due to a bunch of things. The most common I have experienced via other shooters misfortune are the following.
1. Shooter used the wrong powder by mistake.
2. Massive overcharge
a. Shooters who think they can 'get away' with overloading for extra velocity.
b. Shooters who fail to balance or zero their powder scale. Most common with electronic dispensers but a balance beam scale that hasn't been leveled can also cause problems.
3. Bore obstruction.
4. Out of battery firing.
5. Squib load. Powder bridging in funnel resulting in super low charge that detonated when the shot was fired.
LR55
I know this is the wrong place but!!! - Klem - 01-18-2017
Ten,
Quick question, are you familiar with case trimming? Can you confirm your cases have not crept forward over successive firings? To the point they were compressed by the throat and held the bullet too tightly when fired. This turns the chamber into a bomb.
I know this is the wrong place but!!! - howl - 01-18-2017
My experience with 7828 in the .300WM was it went from fine to something giving way with very little increase. Also, if you are running at max with one data source you can probably find another source showing you're shockingly over max. I think y'all covered that already.
Seems like I remember Savages are supposed to vent out a hole on the action? I haven't had one since I got to looking really closely at the metal. My guess is you got too hot without knowing it and something gave way that wasn't supposed to due to a defect in the metal. If you consider the gun a total loss and it was a stock Savage, they'd probably be glad to give you a better answer.
I know this is the wrong place but!!! - LRRPF52 - 01-22-2017
I'm seeing a lot of problems right off the bat here.
1. 2 different brass head stamps are being used, presumably with the same charge weights.
2. Relying on a Lyman digital scale for throwing charges without checking charge weights on another.
3. Loading for a belted magnum that has additional parameters to consider that are not present with other cartridges.
4. Lack of specific data that is normally shared by reloaders, like case trim length.
5. This is a big one too: No mention of working up a load that I have seen in the thread. Maybe I skipped over it, but nowhere is it mentioned what your velocities were with starting loads going up to maximum.
If you are looking in a book and picking a max load, then loading it, this is a good time to step back and realize that a lot of things are missing from how we approach hand-loading and reloading. It is essential to know what the start loads are for the components you are combining for your cartridge.
For example, I load for .260 Remington as well. My Lapua brass has less case capacity than my once-fired 7mm-08 brass necked down, so I had to start load development all over. I would be violating basic load procedures by taking my pet load with the other brass and translating it to the Lapua brass.
When I see mixed brass from different makers, only max loads listed, no trim length, no mention of full-length versus neck-sizing only, particularly with .300 Win Mag, it's time to stop and get some assistance so these kinds of things don't happen.
.300 Win Mag has very strict minimums and maximums, since the case volume is so high with a long powder column, and loading for a belted magnum brings with it certain chances for case stretch that weakens the web, especially if you are full-length sizing without concern for your chamber's dimensions.
What was your headspace measurement for fired brass to the shoulder?
Did you trim to length?
I know this is the wrong place but!!! - Ten Ring - 01-27-2017
Sorry been busy just getting back here (full length resizing) trim to length is 2.610 the. After cleaning and chamfering and Deburring I an bit less I sure. And from the three book I have sierra, IMRpower.com and Lyman 48th max load is 79.5 to 80
Min was 74 to 75 and I was at 77.5.
I know this is the wrong place but!!! - Ten Ring - 01-27-2017
Until talking to others on here I was never aware of the huge vearation in case manufacturers. I on any of my rifles have never worried about mixed cases one ammunition I was loading for hunting. Only for what I would load for competition or trying to achieve maximum accuracy, I have been reloading for me 20 years ( 20 years or tradition on interrupted by progress ) may be the case in this case, this being the only belted Magnum I have owned.
I know this is the wrong place but!!! - LRRPF52 - 01-27-2017
What did your load work-up look like?
I know this is the wrong place but!!! - Ten Ring - 01-27-2017
That was the first load with that powder I had ever done and the only shoot fired with it
I know this is the wrong place but!!! - Ten Ring - 01-27-2017
Probably my fault for not starting a min and working up but I guse I have gotten lazy when it comes to a round that I have loaded for a while.
I know this is the wrong place but!!! - LRRPF52 - 01-27-2017
Ten Ring Wrote:Probably my fault for not starting a min and working up but I guse I have gotten lazy when it comes to a round that I have loaded for a while.
In this context, information sharing can be helpful to learn from others why the reloading manuals talk about working up instead of picking a load and going with it.
It takes a lot of pressure to do what yours did, well in excess of even 70,000psi. When you see an action blow out like that, pressures are in very crazy territory.
Is there a chance that you used a different powder on your bench?