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+--- Thread: Bolt Group Buy - Possible? (/showthread.php?tid=6048)
Bolt Group Buy - Possible? - Tedward - 10-01-2013
OK, I guess if you wade thru all of the pages you will figure out Precession Firearms is going to test and put the finish on the bolts. I talked to Mark last weekend and he will be assembling the bolts complete.
He thinks the easiest way is for him to ship the completed bolts to Lilja and have Dan set them up with each barrel. Then each barrel can be shipped with the bolt as a match set.
This will be coordinated with Mark and Dan, not me. I am just trying to help this along for everyone as Mark is very busy with his Business, Precision Firearms. He has no problem helping out the forum but this is really not his realm of work.
If people start sending bolts to Lilja, then each barrel and bolt is going to be specific to each purchaser. Instead of Dan making 35- AR-740 barrels, it will be like making 35 individual AR-740 barrels for Bob, Fred and Sue. If 30 want the Maxim/Precision Bolts, then he will not have to worry about barrel 16 is Steve's and an AA Bolt, barrel 19 is George and LBC Bolt and so on. The logistics is going to be harder than writhing this explanation.
Mark will be contacting Dan soon and they can discuss the options. Dan might have an easy method already in place and this is not an issue but if 30 of us want the M/PF Bolts, then Dan can just do the match and add the price of the bolt to your end cost, one payment and one shipment.
As for carriers, Carriers are readily available but don't need added to this equeation. If Bolts are wanted, I can talk to Maxim and see how he wants to handle that. I think it should be handled separately to make the part that counts, Match Barrel and Bolt, an easier process for this group buy.
Hope this helps, more details to follow when it is available.
Bolt Group Buy - Possible? - Sputnik - 10-01-2013
That may have to have to be thought out a little bit more. That sounds good for the group barrel buy guys that need/want a bolt, but those of us awaiting for Maxim to offer them for sale as single bolts/BCG's sounds like we just lost an opportunity for our place in line. It will all depend on how many are made, and how many are needed by the Forum. It also wouldn't be fair for somebody to get 5 bolts and somebody else not able to get one, if they run out. I thought the group barrel buy and the group bolt buys were separate. Who is the honest broker here? What is the fair way to manage?
Bolt Group Buy - Possible? - Tedward - 10-01-2013
Your reading into this to far.
1st, make the bolts
2nd, test the bolts
3rd, sell the bolts.
We haven't even got to step 2 and this?
Why make a bucket of junk. They need to make a run, test them and sell them. I know there is way more than the barrel order if everyone got one with there barrel and PF won't sell lots of 5 or 10.
Just wait and see if they pass the test. We might be back to square 1 but I doubt it.
What is fair, just wait and see. Who is the "BROKER?". No broker here. They might not sell to anyone in Jacksonville NC because they have something out for you
...Just chill, Once the first run tests out, they will make more. They needed to see how it went first. The first batch takes the longest then the next run will be quicker.
Once it tests fine they might run thousands, depends on demand and I bet 500 would sell but who knows....
$70 a bolt x 500 bolts= $35,000. Place an order and pay upfront. You might get junk, you got that kind of cash to trash???
Bolt Group Buy - Possible? - Sputnik - 10-01-2013
I am with you...wait and see. But I don't think Mark is wanting to get into the distribution of bolts to Dan or anyone else. He is testing them and is also a consumer with a large order for these bolts. I think it is premature to say a best way is...to send them here or send them there. Maxim owns the bolts. Why not send them back to Maxim for sale? Chillin' here in NC.
Bolt Group Buy - Possible? - Tedward - 10-01-2013
Sputnik Wrote:I am with you...wait and see. But I don't think Mark is wanting to get into the distribution of bolts to Dan or anyone else. He is testing them and is also a consumer with a large order for these bolts. I think it is premature to say a best way is...to send them here or send them there. Maxim owns the bolts. Why not send them back to Maxim for sale? Chillin' here in NC.
That's for PF and Maxim to determine and probably the way it will go. They will work it out. That is also true about Mark, he is not into the Bolt Business and Maxim might just do that after this first round passes.
Thanks and were moving forward, sounds promising..
Keep posting when I hear something....
Bolt Group Buy - Possible? - Sputnik - 10-01-2013
Yes, it does sound promising and glad to see it still moving forward. I know how complicated the barrel buy was and figured the bolt buy had similar potential. I was glad to see earlier; we were awaiting Maxim to announce they had bolts for sale. We avoided taking preorders on the forum since we didn't want/need a POC for taking orders. At some point Frank was going to tell us what he had for sale and prices and information on BCG's, AR-15 bolts, etc. We left the information sharing to a few guys like Tedward; so not to interfere with the manufacturing process. So far it looks like all is running smoothly. It will be interesting to view the feedback of the new bolt owners in hopes it all goes well. Again...future shock!
Bolt Group Buy - Possible? - explorecaves - 10-02-2013
FYI if it does go the way of getting the bolts with the Lilja GB, then I hope Lilja plans on 2 bolts minimum per barrel and possibly even plan on one complete BCG too. I know I plan to buy 1 complete BCG and 1 spare bolt minimum per barrel I have on order.
Bolt Group Buy - Possible? - Sputnik - 10-02-2013
I think if I were Lilja, I would want to handle one bolt for one barrel; that was sent from the owner. Instead of receiving, storing, and shipping x number of extra bolts for each member. I have no idea how they would want the BGC's handled. You may want them direct from Maxim. I don't have a dog in that fight as I am not part of the barrel buy. I have been watching the bolt group buy as I will want a backup bolt somewhere down the road. It makes me wonder though, how an initiative from a group like this can make things happen; when AA and other gun makers say, "oh well, no bolts to be had so there is going to be a delay". Was the timing just right and the need urgent enough to finally make it cost effective for somebody to make a move and make more? No matter, we will keep hoping this is good for everyone!
Bolt Group Buy - Possible? - cory - 10-02-2013
I'm sorry, but this needs to be said bluntly. Having Dan distribute them is going to be a no go. It's going to be an absolute head ache for him and will slow down us getting our barrels. There's no reason he needs to use a different MF bolt to head space every barrel, especially when the bolts are coming from the same batch.
There's only 3 individuals providing a bolt to Dan for their specific barrel to be head spaced with.
Bolt Group Buy - Possible? - cory - 10-02-2013
Sputnik Wrote:I think if I were Lilja, I would want to handle one bolt for one barrel; that was sent from the owner. Instead of receiving, storing, and shipping x number of extra bolts for each member. I have no idea how they would want the BGC's handled. You may want them direct from Maxim. I don't have a dog in that fight as I am not part of the barrel buy. I have been watching the bolt group buy as I will want a backup bolt somewhere down the road. It makes me wonder though, how an initiative from a group like this can make things happen; when AA and other gun makers say, "oh well, no bolts to be had so there is going to be a delay". Was the timing just right and the need urgent enough to finally make it cost effective for somebody to make a move and make more? No matter, we will keep hoping this is good for everyone!
Honestly, timing couldn't of been better.
Bolt Group Buy - Possible? - Sputnik - 10-02-2013
Cory, I agree. This needs to be kept simple. Mark should finish the testing and send them to Maxim for sale. Then make more...a lot more! As you reminded us. Dan has sample bolts already.
Bolt Group Buy - Possible? - Tedward - 10-02-2013
cory Wrote:Honestly, timing couldn't of been better.
I will say this. There are over 3 times as many bolts made than barrels ordered so stop worrying. Another batch could be pumped out in a months time as long as everything is good to go. Maxim is wanting to help us and that is why we are where we are, moving forward. Between Maxim and P.F. I think we are good to go and no other Firearm Machinist or Firearm Manufacture has done anything like this for a Forum and especially the 6.5 Grendel. At least that I have ever heard of.
Bolt Group Buy - Possible? - PrecisionFirearms - 10-02-2013
Testing is proceeding. I am going to recommend some design changes to the bolt. Frank and I will hash that out. I expect it may delay the project a few weeks, but we want to get this right the first time. No market testing required. We are not Microsoft!
By the way the bolts are very nicely finished and the machine work is superb.
Pricing is still unsure. But expect in the $75-$80 range finished and tested for Forum members and $85-$90 for general retail. We will list them on our website with options for Black Nitride or Nickel Boron. We will post a Coupon Code to be used when bolts are purchased. They will be listed with carriers and hardware optional. We will even offer a discount on our Billet Receivers and BCM charging handles when purchased with bolt.
To send them to Lilja will be a logistics nightmare. Even though we match each barrel to each bolt, it is really unnecessary and we only do it to overkill the process. It would be unreasonable to expect Dan Lilja to do this. With manufacturing processes today, we (and Dan and Frank, etc) can hold tolerances of +.0000/-0001 or -0000/+.0001. There is at least .005 tolerance in headspace go and no go. That means we are holding a tolerance 5 times less than headspace allowable go and no go. Even accounting for stacking dimensions with multiple manufacturers and components, the margin of safe within the go and no go is way, way less than the allowable by any standard of rifle manufacturing. If there is a accuracy issue, I can assure all forum members: it is not a fault of the bolt not being individually matched to each barrel. --- Very wordy -so in short: Don't worry about the bolts being matched to each barrel. We will send Dan a few bolts to set-up his machines and then each bolt will be measured and tested here before being shipped to each customer. We will be test firing each bolt.
Mark Hostetter
Precision Firearms
Bolt Group Buy - Possible? - patdaly - 10-02-2013
PrecisionFirearms Wrote:With manufacturing processes today, we (and Dan and Frank, etc) can hold tolerances of +.0000/-0001 or -0000/+.0001. There is at least .005 tolerance in headspace go and no go. That means we are holding a tolerance 5 times less than headspace allowable go and no go.
I think you mean 50X less, unless you meant a 1 thousandth tolerance, which would be sloppy with todays Mfg.
In any instance, you are correct, no reason they can't be mixed and matched.
I want at least 3 spare bolts myself......
Bolt Group Buy - Possible? - PrecisionFirearms - 10-02-2013
Correction, this is what happens when I post at midnight! Thanks to Patdaly for catching so fast!
We can hold +/-.001 on all surfaces and +/-.0001 on some areas. So the 5X is correct. +.000/-.001 is not sloppy by today's tolerances. Most drawings for "milspec Parts use this and allow for up to +/-.005 or more on most surfaces on AR parts. Getting .0001 (ten thousandth's) tolerances requires Temp controlled room, Heat pressed tooling, reamers, roller burnishers, grinding, hard turning after heat treat, etc. For example. I measures a bunch of AA bolts. The depth of bolt face measured from .1355 to .1365 rounding to nearest .0005. That is one thousandth's tolerance. Headspace is measured in .008 difference in go and no go on most gauges.
Mark Hostetter
Precision Firearms
Bolt Group Buy - Possible? - pds - 10-02-2013
PrecisionFirearms Wrote:Testing is proceeding. I am going to recommend some design changes to the bolt. Frank and I will hash that out. I expect it may delay the project a few weeks, but we want to get this right the first time. No market testing required. We are not Microsoft!This is a very nice offer from PF.
By the way the bolts are very nicely finished and the machine work is superb.
Pricing is still unsure. But expect in the $75-$80 range finished and tested for Forum members and $85-$90 for general retail. We will list them on our website with options for Black Nitride or Nickel Boron. We will post a Coupon Code to be used when bolts are purchased. They will be listed with carriers and hardware optional. We will even offer a discount on our Billet Receivers and BCM charging handles when purchased with bolt.
To send them to Lilja will be a logistics nightmare. Even though we match each barrel to each bolt, it is really unnecessary and we only do it to overkill the process. It would be unreasonable to expect Dan Lilja to do this. With manufacturing processes today, we (and Dan and Frank, etc) can hold tolerances of +.0000/-0001 or -0000/+.0001. There is at least .005 tolerance in headspace go and no go. That means we are holding a tolerance 5 times less than headspace allowable go and no go. Even accounting for stacking dimensions with multiple manufacturers and components, the margin of safe within the go and no go is way, way less than the allowable by any standard of rifle manufacturing. If there is a accuracy issue, I can assure all forum members: it is not a fault of the bolt not being individually matched to each barrel. --- Very wordy -so in short: Don't worry about the bolts being matched to each barrel. We will send Dan a few bolts to set-up his machines and then each bolt will be measured and tested here before being shipped to each customer. We will be test firing each bolt.
Mark Hostetter
Precision Firearms
PDS
Bolt Group Buy - Possible? - explorecaves - 10-02-2013
pds Wrote:This is a very nice offer from PF.
PDS
Yes, my wife is going to hate PF in the near future... LOL
Bolt Group Buy - Possible? - 243tikka - 10-03-2013
Mark, I would be interested in the package deal: bolt, carrier and Billet receiver do you have a price in mind for the whole package?
Thanks, Doug
PrecisionFirearms Wrote:Testing is proceeding. I am going to recommend some design changes to the bolt. Frank and I will hash that out. I expect it may delay the project a few weeks, but we want to get this right the first time. No market testing required. We are not Microsoft!
By the way the bolts are very nicely finished and the machine work is superb.
Pricing is still unsure. But expect in the $75-$80 range finished and tested for Forum members and $85-$90 for general retail. We will list them on our website with options for Black Nitride or Nickel Boron. We will post a Coupon Code to be used when bolts are purchased. They will be listed with carriers and hardware optional. We will even offer a discount on our Billet Receivers and BCM charging handles when purchased with bolt.
To send them to Lilja will be a logistics nightmare. Even though we match each barrel to each bolt, it is really unnecessary and we only do it to overkill the process. It would be unreasonable to expect Dan Lilja to do this. With manufacturing processes today, we (and Dan and Frank, etc) can hold tolerances of +.0000/-0001 or -0000/+.0001. There is at least .005 tolerance in headspace go and no go. That means we are holding a tolerance 5 times less than headspace allowable go and no go. Even accounting for stacking dimensions with multiple manufacturers and components, the margin of safe within the go and no go is way, way less than the allowable by any standard of rifle manufacturing. If there is a accuracy issue, I can assure all forum members: it is not a fault of the bolt not being individually matched to each barrel. --- Very wordy -so in short: Don't worry about the bolts being matched to each barrel. We will send Dan a few bolts to set-up his machines and then each bolt will be measured and tested here before being shipped to each customer. We will be test firing each bolt.
Mark Hostetter
Precision Firearms
Bolt Group Buy - Possible? - PrecisionFirearms - 10-03-2013
First we need to get pricing down for the bolts.
Mark Hostetter
Precision Firearms
Bolt Group Buy - Possible? - stevegun 1 - 10-04-2013
Mark, do you mean down to the originally fore casted $65 or "locked" down to the most recent elevation?