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6.5 AR Build - Back to the range - wreckster84 - 09-24-2020
After 2 disappointing range trips and a scope change, went back to the range today with Hornady Black 123g ELD and 123g SST for my Battle Creek Armory 18 upper. I mounted a new Leupold VX-3i 3.5-10x40 with confidence. Spent about 5 rds each at 50 yds and then moved to 100 yds. The ELD Black grouped about 1.5 @100 but the SST wouldnt even stay on a 10 paper plate. WTH???
Im sure some get tired of answering the same questions but, I have to ask: does this rifle require a break in period? I have less than a 75 rds total thru it. Meanwhile my son takes his unfired Howa 6mm Creedmoor to the same range and the first 3 shots are sub MOA at 300yds. Ugh.
6.5 AR Build - Back to the range - Kswhitetails - 09-24-2020
Tell us more about your BCA - do you mean the MN gun store built an upper for you, or would I be correct in assuming you're misspelling Bear Creek Armory?
Some rifles don't like SST, similar to what you report. 1.5" is pretty common for standard ARs, so unless it's got awesome parts, you may be about there.
I'm more interested in it being your third trip, while you are continuing to be disappointed. I'd have been looking into a possible reason already. Have you checked assembly, tolerances, parts, etc...?
Your optic is decent, what about your mount?
More. Details.
6.5 AR Build - Back to the range - wreckster84 - 09-25-2020
Quality checks all around... Leupold AR mount - solid, scope is tight, using a Kaw Valley blast device, 416R SST w/1:8 twist and fluted. Crown is fine and 11*.
Im fine with 1.5 for my purposes on a bargain (Battle Creek from MN) upper assembly. But why the drastic results between ELD and SST? Both have same OAL and look externally identical except for the slight difference in tip color. I mean were talking a 12 group w/SST.
The first two outings caused me to question the optic which went back to Burris and checked fine (great customer service). I also switched to a Toolcraft BCG, great quality.
6.5 AR Build - Back to the range - A5BLASTER - 09-25-2020
wreckster84 Wrote:Quality checks all around... Leupold AR mount - solid, scope is tight, using a Kaw Valley blast device, 416R SST w/1:8 twist and fluted. Crown is fine and 11*.
Im fine with 1.5 for my purposes on a bargain (Battle Creek from MN) upper assembly. But why the drastic results between ELD and SST? Both have same OAL and look externally identical except for the slight difference in tip color. I mean were talking a 12 group w/SST.
The first two outings caused me to question the optic which went back to Burris and checked fine (great customer service). I also switched to a Toolcraft BCG, great quality.
Honestly I would just get the tools needed, pull the barrel and put it in the trash and buy something better rebuild and start enjoying your gun.
6.5 AR Build - Back to the range - Kswhitetails - 09-25-2020
SST is fickle in Grendel to say the least. Some love it, some hate it. Some see good consistent performance, some see what you are, and every time, ask your same questions. We have no real answer other than "some barrels just don't like SST..." I'm not aware that anyone has ever theorized a legitimate guess as to why.
Copy the Battle Creek... can't be too clear.
Good luck, my guess is that you'll be able to find ammo it likes better than others, but SST will probably never agree with it.
A5 isn't being an ass, he's just trying to give you the best advice anyone can. Your barrel is the issue, better barrels don't show these issues. And no, we don't know why. But, as you said, if you're happy with BLACK, you'll probably love Fed AE 120gr, and Fusion 120s; when you can find them. Also, try the AG from Hornady. It's like ELD-m without the expensive jacket and tip.
6.5 AR Build - Back to the range - mdram - 09-25-2020
contact the upper manufacturer, tell them how its shooting, get thier input
there is no info on who made the parts on thier website
without that, then its an unknown as to the quality control of the manufacturer
the website says "These barrels are 100% made in the USA and are very reliable and accurate."
well that not what you are reporting, go back to them
6.5 AR Build - Back to the range - wreckster84 - 09-25-2020
All comments are appreciated, even from A5 (at least I know what the "A" stands for, thanks Kswhitetails
). I have considered changing the barrel but, I did talk to Charles, the owner at BCA, today. He's a nice enough guy and says he has seen the occasional "lemon" barrels and did not doubt my account. After describing in more detail on the phone, he encouraged me to send it back for a refund without further investigation or experimentation (curious). I suppose that's as good as I can expect as he doesn't have any inventory to replace it with. That leaves me with shopping for a new upper during the pandemic mania but, perhaps there are still good options out there.
6.5 AR Build - Back to the range - Klaus Von Richter - 09-25-2020
What barrel is on this build? Some barrels just do not like some bullets. 10 groups at 100yrds is definitely an indicator something is wrong.
6.5 AR Build - Back to the range - wreckster84 - 09-25-2020
Klaus Von Richter Wrote:What barrel is on this build? Some barrels just do not like some bullets. 10 groups at 100yrds is definitely an indicator something is wrong.
Barrel origin is unknown, the shop did not volunteer the information but simply said they don't guarantee accuracy LOL.
I disassembled the hand guard, noticed some small gas leakage from the front of the gas block where the gas tube hole comes through (common?), did an overall visual with magnification, and check bore diameters. Don't have a headspace gauge for 6.5G so I've decided to let it go and look for another option.
6.5 AR Build - Back to the range - A5BLASTER - 09-25-2020
wreckster84 Wrote:Barrel origin is unknown, the shop did not volunteer the information but simply said they don't guarantee accuracy LOL.
I disassembled the hand guard, noticed some small gas leakage from the front of the gas block where the gas tube hole comes through (common?), did an overall visual with magnification, and check bore diameters. Don't have a headspace gauge for 6.5G so I've decided to let it go and look for another option.
So it is a bear creek barrel. Best to move on from it.
6.5 AR Build - Back to the range - MichaelSChittum - 09-26-2020
Why not buy a monster 16" barrel for $139 and proper gas tube. And your back up and running.....with experience!
6.5 AR Build - Back to the range - Klem - 09-26-2020
Wreck,
Sorry to hear you're not enjoying your shooting sessions.
After 75rds that barrel should be broken in. Good quality barrels need no break in shots while average barrels might need a few rounds to lap the tube and fill in the pores with copper. After 75 rounds this is the best accuracy it will ever be and it very slowly goes downhill from here.
The AR's gas impingement system is designed to function reliably and yet leak like a sieve. The way this can happen is by bleeding a generous amount from the bore. Gas blocks don't go on with a hermetic seal. You slide them on and screw or pin them in place. Yes, you can glue a seal on them at the block but shouldn't have to. Plus they leak at other joins so it's more trouble than its worth. I wouldn't worry about it.
The precision difference between a bolt gun and auto loader is well documented. This will be more obvious if your Son's Howa is a good barrel and your AR barrel is a tomato stake - which sounds like it. There are a lot of unhappy shooters with BCA barrels who post on this site. The cost of ammunition to get that barrel to shoot (if it ever will) will end up the same as a top tier.
The Kaw Valley muzzle device doesn't need to be there for this accuracy testing phase, if you think it might be influencing accuracy. There's not a lot of guys saying it improves accuracy and in some situations might degrade it. For peace of mind you could unscrew it while testing, or even fire some rounds with and some rounds without to confirm it's influence. It should make no difference on or off.
I am interested in why Burris would check a Leupold scope. In your first post you say it's a Leupold and in your second you mention sending it back to Burris. What's the story there?
6.5 AR Build - Back to the range - CS Vrdad - 09-26-2020
If I'm reading the first post correctly the Burris was used on the first two trips to the range and was sent back. He then put on the Leupold for this most recent trip and still had disappointing results.
6.5 AR Build - Back to the range - Klem - 09-27-2020
OK, I see what you mean. Tried two scopes; had one checked, and eliminated the scope from being the issue.
12" groups compared to another bullet which is 1.5" is extraordinary. It sounds like the SST is unstable. If it was some physical defect in the barrel or muzzle device then both bullets would be 12" groups. Maybe the barrel is not exactly 1:8" and stabilises one bullet but not the other. He can check this with an oversized patch pushed down the barrel and a marker pen. Along with checking the stability via JBM Ballistics [online] (the Miller formula).
Are all the target's bullet holes exactly round? Any of the SST going through on a slight angle?
6.5 AR Build - Back to the range - slappyhooper - 09-28-2020
I've tested four BCA grendel barrels, one of which I kept.
I shot SSTs through all but one, and all of them HATED SSTs.
The first two barrels were M4 profile and they shot about 8-10 MOA with SSTs
The one I kept shoots better with 100 grain Wolf Steel cased ammo than SSTs, but it will at least hold about 1 MOA after breakin with ELD-M so I kept it.
It's really frustrating because I can go from repeatable 1-1.25 MOA 5 round groups with ELD-M to 4-6 MOA groups with the SST.
I don't know why it be like that, but it do.
6.5 AR Build - Back to the range - Texcl2 - 09-28-2020
My rifle doesnt like sst s much, shoots them into a 3 group vs. sub-moa with all my reloads using Hornady gmx or 100gr partitions. The factory Sst loads seem over pressured to me too. The only round that shoots worse is wolf at 6.
6.5 AR Build - Back to the range - wreckster84 - 09-29-2020
MichaelSChittum Wrote:Why not buy a monster 16" barrel for $139 and proper gas tube. And your back up and running.....with experience!
Tempted, really wanted an 18" though, but Monster may not have any until 2021.
Klem, thanks for the comments. I'm a mechanical engineer (at least that's what my diploma said), so all these variables are not adding up. I too thought there must be some instability with SST and the barrel twist. I did notice the obvious difference between ELD and SST, one has a crimp ring and substantial crimp (SST), whereas the ELD does not have either. Hmmm? But, the heck with engineering, the fact that a "quality" barrel would not need all of this analysis and shoot as well as the shooter is able is where I'm at. Didn't mean to confuse on the scope. The Burris and Leopold are both trusted in my experience so I was only trying to rule out optics.
There has to be something to this SST anomaly. Surely the bulletsmiths out there have to know a crimp could had a variable to the equation.
6.5 AR Build - Back to the range - Klem - 09-29-2020
Wreck,
I hear you and fair enough.
I am not a fan of crimping, and not just because it adds an extra reloading step. While there is some community disagreement I think the majority consensus is that it does not improve accuracy. It's more of a reliability thing of keeping that bullet rigid until fired. Advocates reckon it improves burning by holding the bullet in place for longer. Certainly put there by manufacturers when they think it's likely to be used in auto-loaders, to keep that bullet still while being bashed about. I note the crimped Gemtech Blackout 220SMK subsonic ammunition is far less accurate than hand loading a non-crimped equivalent with same bullet. To be fair that could also be bulk loading practices and not necessarily the crimp.
But 12MOA vs. 1.5MOA - something is wrong.
6.5 AR Build - Back to the range - Lemonaid - 09-29-2020
Possibility of short throat? Any markings of bullets cycled through without firing (done in a safe manner)?
6.5 AR Build - Back to the range - VASCAR2 - 09-29-2020
When the Hornady 123 grain SST ammo was introduced it generally shot as well as the 123 grain A-Max ammo. The 123 grain SST cannelure is there to help hold the lead core into the jacket since it is designed as a hunting bullet. Once Hornady dropped the 123 grain A-Max and started selling the 123 grain ELD-Match ammo is when reports of poor accuracy surfaced with the 123 grain SST factory ammo.
I have never accuracy tested the 123 grain SST Bullet as a reloading component but would be curious if the accuracy is better than the factory ammo. A Friend used to load 123 grain SST in Lapua cases with CCI 450 primers and around 31 grains of LeveRevolution powder. He shot several hundred of these in his SAAMI spec Brownells/Liberty barrel. His barrel had a short throat but since it was accurate and he rarely shot factory ammo he kept it. This was one of the very first Brownells 6.5 Grendel barrels before Satern/Liberty switched to the Grendel II chamber.
I suspect the current 123 grain SST ammo doesnt have the tighter tolerance control as the 123 grain ELD-M ammo or the previous 123 grain A-Max which are sold as Target ammo. Id say the 123 grain SST ammo has a larger accuracy standard lot to lot compared to the ELD-M.