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+--- Thread: Decent BUIS for less money? (/showthread.php?tid=14631)
Decent BUIS for less money? - Frontier Gear - 11-25-2017
Read this in another thread and didn't want to hijack it. I thought that we could possibly post some decent sights that people have found to help save others from buying junk.
zcostilla Wrote:His $20 BUIS sights were a failure, the front sight wobbles on recoil and worse, the rear aperture wont lock into either position, and wont stay consistent from one shot to the next. He hasnt spent the cash to upgrade them yet (18-years old, so I get it), so under the circumstances I only used one box of ammo, and let my 13-year old son go to town with the other boxes I had bought for the occasion.
BUIS are often overpriced, oversized and prone to failure. $20-80 for a set of BIUS makes for pretty marginal sights. Most of the budget BUIS that I have found are all the same made in China models sold by different distributors with a high markup. Wholesale on many of these are $10-$20.
Ones that look like this often retail for $80 but cost about $24 wholesale and are pretty much junk as described above by zcostilla.
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I got these off of Amazon for about $25 and they were a waste of money. After a week of bouncing around in the Jeep, the buttons stick and so the sight won't stay folded down.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B071ZF1DS2/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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BCA offers a pretty decent pair for about $40 retail. The ones that I tried at least stayed put when you were shooting and they didn't break after a week of riding around in the jeep. You can find them for less if you look around.
https://www.bearcreekarsenal.com/accessories/rsfs-15
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My current preference is the Griffin Armament M2 sights. They are made out of steel and are much slimmer than others. They work well and have a cool mounting system but are way more than $25. Retail is like $175.
https://www.rainierarms.com/griffin-armament-m2-sight-deployment-kit/
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What have you guys found that works well and doesn't break the bank? I use them for hunting in case my scope fogs up. For my next Grendel build, I'd love to find a pair like the Griffin sights, but for less money.
Decent BUIS for less money? - zcostilla - 11-25-2017
Hey, great idea for a thread! Wish I had thought of it. I bought him the red dot I mentioned as an early Christmas gift because I took someone’s recommendation on that cheap Amazon BUIS set and felt bad. We built his AR for his 18th birthday and I talked him into buying junk. I’ll look into the BCA set, unless someone has a better recommendation.
Decent BUIS for less money? - Sticks - 11-25-2017
I really't don't expect much from Backup Iron Sights. They are back up, not primary.
If I was to shoot nothing but irons on a rifle, then they will be fixed, not folding. Fortunately I am blind in that regard and honestly have never been able to shoot irons. If my primary optic fails, then I am point shooting and going by instinct.
Decent BUIS for less money? - LR1955 - 11-25-2017
One thing to add. Do be sure the front and or rear sight are tall enough to zero!
Some of the BUIS can be had with differing front sight heights. Get the one that is high enough.
I have a couple of BUIS and they are very crude. Even if you get a decent zero with them, reliable hits at 200 yards on a upper torso is very challenging. Between finding a set that zeros, that will stay secured when getting banged about, and that is marginally reliable, I think one may be better suited with a micro dot sight as a back up.
LR55
Decent BUIS for less money? - Frontier Gear - 11-25-2017
Sticks Wrote:I really't don't expect much from Backup Iron Sights. They are back up, not primary.
LR1955 Wrote:I have a couple of BUIS and they are very crude. Even if you get a decent zero with them, reliable hits at 200 yards on a upper torso is very challenging. Between finding a set that zeros, that will stay secured when getting banged about, and that is marginally reliable, I think one may be better suited with a micro dot sight as a back up.
Both good points. With some of them I had a hard time hitting the broad side of a barn, and I would have to preposition them after every shot. With the Griffin, we were getting consistent 1 inch groups at 50 yards though. Not bad for a back-up option. I'd be comfortable taking a deer within 100 yards with them.
Personally I don't like anything that takes batteries on my hunting rifles. Nothing wrong with technology, I love having range finders when hunting. I just don't want it on my rifle. With my luck I'd be fiddling with it trying to turn it on, adjust it, re-boot it, or have the batteries die just as that buck I've been waiting for all week steps out.
Decent BUIS for less money? - Klem - 11-26-2017
Why do you need them?
I know it's all about if your primary optic crashes but let's be realistic, how often does that happen? I saw it on Saving Private Ryan when the German sniper gets shot through the scope (which was debunked on Mythbusters) but then again, he wasn't too healthy to use his iron sights. On the other hand Nightforce or Leupold has a photo on their website of a scope shot by bad guys that still worked, and didn't need BUIS. But let's be realistic...What's an imagined scenario when you, not the military, need BUIS? You go on a hunting trip and your scope comes loose. If you torque your screws every time you take that gun out it's not going to happen. Even if it still comes loose and you can take off your scope in the field (because you happen to have the correct screwdriver handy) then are you going to trust your BUIS to continue the hunt? Or are you going to head back to the truck?
Are we talking about some post-apocalyptic world imagined by Preppers where society breaks down and your red dot scope runs out of power, ten years into the future, and you are still alive? Home invasion maybe where again, the red dot doesn't go on? Swimming through a river and the cheap optic you bought is not waterproof? Do you bush-bash a lot if you're not carrying a tax-payer funded rifle? The more likely scenario is a loose scope which cuts your trip to the range short. Even if you've driven hours to get somewhere you then drive into town to get it fixed. In a rare home defence situation where you bring up your sights and realise you need BUIS...How often does that happen? And you then have time to do transition...bearing in mind if it's a proper scope the rear BUIS will be under the scope and cannot be lifted until the scope is removed from the gun, unless you have QD levers, and have the precious seconds to do this, and also have time to buy a winning lottery ticket, and on it goes.
From another point of view, if you think genuine BUIS are 'overpriced' then you've already made up your mind that they are not a priority. My thoughts are to save your money and not put a set of cheap or counterfeits on your gun that just make it heavier and are prone to loss of zero, and you don't trust them anyway.
If you are looking for iron sights you could consider complimenting rather than replacing the main optic on your gun. That's a more likely scenario. Something like a laser or 45degree offset sights. Always deployed and the main scope doesn't have to come off. Short range shooting where the scope is too slow or doesn't work. Again, get a genuine set of Dueck's or KAS offsets (be careful of Chinese clones). Genuine's cost hundreds of dollars and if this seems unreasonable then don't get them because clearly you don't think you'll ever need them. Repeatability in sight systems costs money and there's no way around this fact.
Another option is to have a compact red dot on the primary sight. Or, have the primary sight on QD mounts and carry a spare, zeroed red dot in your gear. Keeps your gun lighter and more compact/streamlined.
Bottom line, cheap counterfeit gun parts are a scourge, for a scenario so unlikely that yet another option is to spend that money on ammunition instead.
Decent BUIS for less money? - FOGII - 11-26-2017
Klem,
The Myth Busters episode refd GySgt. Hathcocks shot. Myth Busters did not debunk the shot, they used a down loaded .308 Rem 700 (1-11 twist) with a Sierra 168 MK shootting different scopes vice a Win 70 30-06 (1-10 twist) with AP shooting at the correct scope. They later correctly replicated the shot successfully.
Back-up irons depends on usage. Scope fails in a short range firefight then the 45 degee offsets work. I go with MagPuls on vehicle guns (AR rifles and pistols) zerod 100 or 200 yards depending on round used.
Currently Palmetto has a sale on MagPul sets for $50.00.
S/F, FOG
Decent BUIS for less money? - Frontier Gear - 11-26-2017
Klem Wrote:Why do you need them?
I know it's all about if your primary optic crashes but let's be realistic, how often does that happen?
Where I live it happens almost every hunting season. Weather conditions get just right with fog and humidity in the air and your scope fogs up. I live on the Kettle River. There is great hunting around here, but there can be lots of humidity. We can have a nice snow on the ground, but then it starts warming up.... Fog. It can roll in fast and burn off just as quickly, but it is very common for people to miss an opportunity at an animal due to a fogged scope in this neck of the woods. Most people around here are using bolt guns and lever actions. They mount scopes on the bolt guns with "see through" mounts for their iron sights. This works, but puts the scope up high and they loose their cheek weld. When I show people an AR hunting rifle with 45 degree backup sights the first thing they say is "I need those!" and then they tell their story about a missed opportunity due to a fogged scope.
Another example that I just saw last week was when my friends horse fell and landed on his hunting rifle that was in a scabbard on the horse. That's not too friendly for the optics or the gun in general. Last year my 13 year old son banged my scope and broke it while we were hunting. My point being that optics get damaged, especially when they are out in the woods every day, all day.
Good quality 45 degree BUIS make a lot of practical sense. If your scope fogs up or gets damaged, simply pop up the sights and tilt your rifle. You are now good for 100 yard shots. No tools needed and they don't raise your scope up higher than it should be.
I'm not building a zombie killer and just want to trick out my AR. I'm just trying to solve an old problem using the modern sporting rifle and the features that it offers.
I'm willing to (and have already) paid hundreds of dollars for my 45 degree backup sights, because I do feel that they are worth it. However, I'd love to find a better deal (who doesn't want to save some money?).
Here is my cabin a few weeks ago. As you can see, it can be prone to fog and the ground can be steep and slippery.
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Decent BUIS for less money? - LR1955 - 11-26-2017
Frontier Gear Wrote:Both good points. With some of them I had a hard time hitting the broad side of a barn, and I would have to preposition them after every shot. With the Griffin, we were getting consistent 1 inch groups at 50 yards though. Not bad for a back-up option. I'd be comfortable taking a deer within 100 yards with them.
Personally I don't like anything that takes batteries on my hunting rifles. Nothing wrong with technology, I love having range finders when hunting. I just don't want it on my rifle. With my luck I'd be fiddling with it trying to turn it on, adjust it, re-boot it, or have the batteries die just as that buck I've been waiting for all week steps out.
FG:
Seems like you got what you want. I understand trying to find something cheaper but if you trust what you have already, stick with it.
LR55
Decent BUIS for less money? - Klem - 11-26-2017
FOGII Wrote:Klem,
The Myth Busters episode ref’d GySgt. Hathcock’s shot. Myth Busters did not debunk the shot, they used a down loaded .308 Rem 700 (1-11 twist) with a Sierra 168 MK shootting different scopes vice a Win 70 30-06 (1-10 twist) with AP shooting at the correct scope. They later correctly replicated the shot successfully.
Back-up irons depends on usage. Scope fails in a short range firefight then the 45 degee offsets work. I go with MagPuls on vehicle guns (AR rifles and pistols) zero’d 100 or 200 yards depending on round used.
Currently Palmetto has a sale on MagPul sets for $50.00.
S/F, FOG
I think you missed my point...What are the chances you're going to get shot through a scope like in a movie? AND, then be in a condition to use your BUIS? All the while being a civilian who is not in a fictional movie script?
'Scope fails in a short range firefight?' How often do scopes fail, in a civilian firefight, in the US, in 2017? How many 'firefights' do you find yourself in where you live?
If your scope fails because in the (unlikely) scenario a horse falls on it then you go into town and get it, and the horse fixed. If your 13year old son bangs his scope and wants to continue the hunt then you give him yours if game presents itself, or punctuate the need to be more careful by ending the hunt. My experience over the years is that scopes do not get damaged often and there's always an alternate scenario that mitigates the need to have BUIS'. But, if you want to be prepared for every scenario then make sure you have a torch on the weapon as well, and a bipod, and a DBAL, and a foregrip, and a second back-up BUIS in case both the scope and the BUIS breaks at a critical time. You never know (when you ignore your actual self for an ideal). And maybe coat the lenses with anti-fog if that's an issue.
Nice picture of the cabin BTW.
Decent BUIS for less money? - StoneHendge - 11-26-2017
I would consider myself a "birther" and a "denier". Some might call me a "conspiracy theorist". I just consider myself wise.
I would not, however, consider myself to be a "prepper". I have learned through life experiences, however, that one can never be too prepared because life and the world can change in an instant and situations may arise when society may be "dislocated" and one may very well be alone and only with strangers, surrounded by chaos, no way to travel other than with my feet, and have no ability to communicate with friends/family. I do therefore keep a 556 carbine in my non electronic safe with BUIS, the 300 BLK truck gun I am building will have a red dot and BUIS, and I keep a good old fashioned 357 lever gun with iron sites in my office. Unfortunately, every time I try to check on the emergency tin foil hats that I keep in the AR grip storage compartments, they are wrinkled/crumpled beyond use!
Decent BUIS for less money? - zcostilla - 11-26-2017
Klem Wrote:Why do you need them?
[DIALOG OMITTED]
Another option is to have a compact red dot on the primary sight. Or, have the primary sight on QD mounts and carry a spare, zeroed red dot in your gear. Keeps your gun lighter and more compact/streamlined.
Bottom line, cheap counterfeit gun parts are a scourge, for a scenario so unlikely that yet another option is to spend that money on ammunition instead.
I personally don’t need them and don’t intend to put them on my Grendel. My son never intended for iron sights to be his primary, but I talked him into a cheap set (A BIG MISTAKE) while he saved up for a quality red dot. In the end, I bought him a TRS-25 red dot as a Christmas gift because I talked him into wasting his money. But I encouraged him to get another set of BUIS later for the time his red dot battery failed and also because this is his first rifle and it is my firm opinion that becoming proficient at shooting iron sights will make him a better shooter all-around, and BUIS are a way of not having to recheck zero if he removes his red dot.
Decent BUIS for less money? - HowaGrendel - 11-26-2017
Learning how to use open sights also helps make you a better shot with optics.....the repeatability on shooting accurate shots with open sights are useful things to learn and practice...having a reliable, accurate set of open sights should be a given....
Decent BUIS for less money? - FOGII - 11-26-2017
Klem,
Your point about a fictional movie script while Myth Busters attempts were of an actual event.
The fact is scopes have been shot and Marines remained in the fight using the back-up sights on the ACOGs, Trijicon has/had some of the scopes. Admittedly the bullets didn’t penetrate completely.
Hopefully no more firefights but better to be prepared. Failure can either be damage to the scope (not getting the scope back in operation) or debris of some kind that can be cleaned up when time permits.
My experience that good quality scopes with good quality mounts are not often damaged from falls, drops etc. unless a lense is struck. Cheap stuff on the other hand… I have seen more temporary failure from getting the lense(s) dirty.
S/F, FOG
Decent BUIS for less money? - Frontier Gear - 11-26-2017
Quote:Nice picture of the cabin BTW.Thanks, I took it when I was walking back down the mountain after scouting. It looked cozy and I was thinking of a nice hot cup of coffee.
Quote: My experience over the years is that scopes do not get damaged often and there's always an alternate scenario that mitigates the need to have BUIS'
I guess that our experiences differ. If you don't like BUIS or see the need for them, that's fine don't use them. I still want them on my hunting rifles though.
Quote:Seems like you got what you want. I understand trying to find something cheaper but if you trust what you have already, stick with it.
I plan on staying with these for the rifle that they are on, but I'm building a second one and would like to hear what others have had success with (or had a bad experience with) before I purchase the next set. There is such a variety of quality out there that it would be nice to hear from people who have tried some of the specific brands/models.
I really didn't want/expect this to become a debate on if BUIS are needed or not. I was actually just looking to share some feedback and prices on hardware in hopes of finding a better deal. :confused:
Decent BUIS for less money? - Klem - 11-26-2017
Fog,
My point is that it's rare to ever need them so if you're going to consider cheap counterfeit clones because the genuine article is too expensive then don't bother. As for the Mythbusters real event, people get hit by lightning but we don't go round wearing lightning rods.
'Hopefully no more firefights'. I hope so too for your sake. Hopefully you'll be withdrawn from the FEBA and back in the States soon. But, if you are already back in the States then thank you for making my point about the distinction between reality and fiction, and civilian and military. We're talking about your gun, not a work gun. Work guns are for overseas combat where a BUIS makes sense, sometimes. Civilian guns are for recreation, competition, hunting and heaven forbid the very rare and unlikely scenario you might need it to defend your family. In any of those civilian scenarios what is the likelihood you will need a BUIS?
If you compete in Three-gun then knock yourself out with the offsets because you need them. If you want to build a gun that pays homage to the military then a set of BUIS will 'complete' the rifle and look good. Otherwise, you've got to pay for it, and carry it.
Frontier,
You may not have wanted an alternate opinion but it doesn't hurt to consider it. Also, plenty of stories about the cheap knock-off's not holding zero. All that said, my only experience with BUIS is Troy and their genuine sights are all solid metal and hold zero. They are a bit high when folded which might be an issue with scope clearance. I prefer the HK rounded fronts because they are easier to line-up with the rear sights in low light when you can't see the post. I've used their Dioptic (diamond shape) rear sight and did not like it. The front sight post is a bit hard to adjust for elevation as it's longer than MILSPEC so the standard sight adjustment tool doesn't work. Easy to zero with a red dot sight if the red dot is on the same plane. I also use the BUIS as a field zero check if taking on and off the red dot.
.
Decent BUIS for less money? - The Profit Joseph Sith - 11-26-2017
this thread is kinda getting off topic with the saving private ryan reference thrown in the mix. it would be nice to get back on topic.
i bought six of the cheapo AIM chinese carry handle rear sights from classic for about $20 on sale. those can be handy and fairly comfortable to carry sometimes. they seem like they are worth the $20. but a disclaimer i havent used any of them yet.
within the last couple weeks i received some diamond head metal flip up set for $80 @ primary. idk if I'd recommend them. they are very big IMO not really sleek at all. but do seem durable and a good price for what you get. i dont think i like the reticles but they COULD be replaced with std. front and rears. or better yet upgraded KNS post and rear.
personally i REALLY like my YHM solid steel front flip up combo gas block. seems battle ready and very durable. has a HK style type globe. and i take my front post and screw it in a 8-32 cleaning rod adapter chuck it in the drill press and file the post to about .062"
as far as im concerned though there is no sight im really happy with. I'm currently trying to buy a nice PC so i can do some design work and try and develope my own. i think we'll all agree the trigger and sights have the biggest impact on accuracy. and there's always room in the market for great sights.
i started on williams peep sights on my Benjamin pellet gun when i was a kid and have always been fond of good quality iron sights.
p.s. thanks FG i didnt know Rainier had those Griffin's and ive been dying to check them out. ill have to stop by there sometime soon. (their bargain table gets me almost every time though)
Decent BUIS for less money? - FOGII - 11-26-2017
Klem,
Permanently 1st CivDiv now. Health issue preclude 3 gun competition. High end metal back-ups with a better sight picture than the MagPuls if I was carrying a weapon but the MagPuls are sturdy enough, weigh little, and allow hits out to at least 300 yards COM or chest area of deer/hog.
I choose my retirement place reduce the chances of needing a weapon but similar to your lightning analogy I reduce, but don’t eliminate, the possibility. The chances are less than 0.1% but I still practice.
As for hunting I shoot my deer and some hogs with friends but cost of failure is at most embarrassment and a round or two.
TPJS,
For a front sight I agree that a HK style post in a circle is both faster and more accurate than the U.S. style wings. My point is that on a cost to utility for those outside of three gun the Magpul came out on top.
S/F, FOG
Decent BUIS for less money? - Frontier Gear - 11-26-2017
FOGII Wrote:My point is that on a cost to utility for those outside of three gun the Magpul came out on top.
Can I ask which Magpuls you are using?
Quote:p.s. thanks FG i didnt know Rainier had those Griffin's and ive been dying to check them out. ill have to stop by there sometime soon. (their bargain table gets me almost every time though)Your welcome.
I guess that the three sets that I was looking at were the Griffins, Strike Ind Sidwinders and the Magpul Mbus Pro. All three are about the same price and I had never used any of them when I bought the Griffins. The Griffins were made out of steel and looked like they would be slim. Other than that, I basically just flipped a coin between those three. I'd really like to hear from anyone who tried the Sidewinder or Magpul Pro sights. Or better yet, if anyone likes them and has found them at a better price.
https://www.rainierarms.com/strike-industries-sidewinder-buis/
https://www.rainierarms.com/magpul-mbus-pro-offset-sight-front/
https://www.rainierarms.com/magpul-mbus-pro-offset-sight-rear/
Decent BUIS for less money? - bj139 - 11-26-2017
I have these:
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Front-and-Rear-Flip-Up-45-Degree-Offset-Rapid-Transition-Backup-Iron-Sight/265965790
They are solid and point to the same spot as the scope.
I posted about the BUIS I added to my Howa mini Grendel here:
http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?15375-Howa-Mini-Action-6-5-Grendel-Youth-(HMY30603-)
I was flamed with lots of comments about how I didn't need them but if i need them, I have them.