Ballistic Apps and the Importance of Accurate Data

[LR1955]

LR55,

With all due respect, I would submit that ballistic calculators have their place, and I believe they are more common than you seem to be giving them credit. While I acknowledge that military snipers are trained to use their basic skills to range and dope, it is my understanding the modern long range shooters in the various branches are utilizing these devices, along with LRFs for greater first round hit probabilities. Somebody please correct me if I am in error on this.

As far as one's life depending on a calculator, I think it is reasonable to state that in the daily experiences of the vast majority of the shooters on this forum, we are not talking about battlefield types of engagement, and lives are not typically at stake.

My shooting involves targets that are typically much smaller than the 24" wide, 40" tall silhouettes and, consequently, the margin of error is more critical. One of my past-times is varminting, and when cleaning out a prairie dog town at 700 - 900+ yards, I rarely get second shots on the same target at the same range. Further, it has been my direct experience that at those distances, inches do count and dope cards rarely have it just right on a given day. Yes, as my experience builds, I am getting more comfortable "calling an audible" from time to time but for my purposes, I still find BAE invaluable.

Do I sound a tad OC? I am certain that to some, I do. That is my nature, and I enjoy the satisfaction of using fewer rounds to accomplish my objectives. Using a ballistics app is one of the tools that helps me to reduce the number of variables that can cause errant shots. Yes, there are a myriad of factors which can cause a miss, but why not take advantage of a tool with such obvious utility? I don't for one second espouse the idea that a ballistic app will guarantee a first round hit, but I can say without reservation that my first round hits are far more frequent since I started using it.

Lastly, while I don't think anyone here truly considers the Grendel's effective range to be greater than 500-600 yards as it relates to either medium game or man-sized targets, that does not negate or rule out its appeal for shooting at much greater distances. Recreational shooting obviously has many facets, and long range happens to be one I enjoy exploring - with this weapon and others with greater potential.

In short, different strokes...

NF / Guys:

Not as different as some may think. Very similar in fact. Except for the OCD part....

Never said there was something wrong with using the gimmicks and apps available for long range shooting. I would just advise guys to temper their trust for such things. Understand that 500 yards is about where one sees differences in exterior ballistics between ammunition types. So hitting a IPSC steel at 500 probably isn't due to the 1/4 minute difference a app gives than just using your zero and come ups.

I shoot High Power and compete in winter biathlon. I shoot steel at unknown distances when I can find a place to do so, but don't assume the steels I have are E-Sils. I wish I had a place close by to set in steel to long ranges but that isn't the case. I spent many years training Army precision Riflemen following my career. Don't assume my standards were always minute of man.

So, you won't get much of an argument going between me and anyone else here. I would just caution newer guys to temper their trust in some of this technology. It does work but unless you are going to extremes, it doesn't work as much as one may think.

Off to train!

LR55

[stokesrj]

I often see folks who come to the range with an anemometer, ballistic calculators, very good optics, accurate rifles and loads, yet are very surprised when they miss the whole target at 1,000 yards. I also see savvy competitors who look throughout their spotting scope read the conditions, dial their sights and make a centered shot. The difference is experience, the number of rounds sent down range under varied conditions and familiarity with the rifle and load in use.

I've personally watched snipers setting up for the shot using the conditions at the shooting line, yet failing to account for the changing conditions along the bullets path to the target. Snipers seldom get enough practice to truly learn how to read the conditions. More of their training is on stealth and information collections the focus on shooting is of less priority.

The US Army (SOCOM) recently released a study in which it was found, the average Camp Perry trained High Power rifle competitor was 300% more likely to get a first round hit on a man sized target at 1,000 yards than a recently returned from theater sniper. The reason is simple, the number of rounds put down range fired by the competitor, completely overwhelms the number fired by the sniper. This allows the competitor to learn hold, trigger control, sight picture, and condition reading to a whole new level of proficiency.

As LR55 said, nothing wrong with good equipment and calculators, but it does not replace skill and experience, which are only gained by thousands upon thousands of rounds down range with good feedback.
Here is a link to a discussion about the paper. http://www.shadowspear.com/vb/thread...snipers.16402/
Bob

[Slappy]

Practice practice practice in different conditions. BANG BANG!!! Oh then practice some more!!

[NugginFutz]

I shoot High Power and compete in winter biathlon. I shoot steel at unknown distances when I can find a place to do so, but don't assume the steels I have are E-Sils. I wish I had a place close by to set in steel to long ranges but that isn't the case. I spent many years training Army precision Riflemen following my career. Don't assume my standards were always minute of man.
LR55

Therein lies one of the major differences between you and me, LR55. I have neither the time or budget for shooting that many rounds and as a consequence, my skills have not evolved as fast or as far as yours likely have. I need all the help I can get. Heck - that is why I signed up for LRRPF52's class, this fall.

So, you won't get much of an argument going between me and anyone else here. I would just caution newer guys to temper their trust in some of this technology. It does work but unless you are going to extremes, it doesn't work as much as one may think.
LR55

Nor would I argue this point. Top drawer tools don't make people into craftsman. Training, skill and experience does. I've seen plenty of hacks with nice shiny tools do things to fine wood that is considered criminal in 40 states.

The reason I started this thread in the first place was to share my experience and the lessons learned. If anything, LR55, one can see from my OP that my experience directly supports your cautions on these apps.

So, yes - not so different.

[davidj]

[waveslayer]

I use the Shooter App on my phone, I love it. It is as good as your inputted data is. It asks for twist rate, etc.... I also use my Kestrel that has Blue Tooth, no stress if there is no service. I hook my phone up to the Kestrel and it will automatically populate into my App and give me the correct solutions. You can even factor in Corilios Effect. I have noticed that you need to true your App to your load. I go out and shoot at certain yards make notes of my MOA for center hits, no stress on wind, for truing, then I use the Velocity Calculator to correct the App to give me accurate feedback. Now I am testing and also asking, what the actual BC's are for some of my loads because of the difference in velocity I get from my Chrono, Magnetospeed, and Velocity calculator.

for example: my loads run at about 2648 from a 24" barrel with XBR powder and the 123 Amax... but when I went back East to shoot I was shooting very high at 500 and 600 yards, I had to adjust the velocity to 2700.66 (per my velocity calculator on Shooter)... so my BC could be off or the MagnetoSpeed and my Chrono are both way off.... so the mystery continues.

Overall great lessons you learned and I am learning too. I know Brandon Webb says that all he needs is 3 bullets and the velocity for those, then he can shoot well past 1500 yards without having to even check his actual data.... I am not getting the same results.

Get the Kestrel that has bluetooth and hook it up to your App and get your weather readings there. I wish they had a booster to get more then 30' distance on the Kestrel's Bluetooth... then I could place my Kestrel out close to the target to get actual wind and data...

[LR1955]

I use the Shooter App on my phone, I love it. It is as good as your inputted data is. It asks for twist rate, etc.... I also use my Kestrel that has Blue Tooth, no stress if there is no service. I hook my phone up to the Kestrel and it will automatically populate into my App and give me the correct solutions. You can even factor in Corilios Effect. I have noticed that you need to true your App to your load. I go out and shoot at certain yards make notes of my MOA for center hits, no stress on wind, for truing, then I use the Velocity Calculator to correct the App to give me accurate feedback. Now I am testing and also asking, what the actual BC's are for some of my loads because of the difference in velocity I get from my Chrono, Magnetospeed, and Velocity calculator.

for example: my loads run at about 2648 from a 24" barrel with XBR powder and the 123 Amax... but when I went back East to shoot I was shooting very high at 500 and 600 yards, I had to adjust the velocity to 2700.66 (per my velocity calculator on Shooter)... so my BC could be off or the MagnetoSpeed and my Chrono are both way off.... so the mystery continues.

Overall great lessons you learned and I am learning too. I know Brandon Webb says that all he needs is 3 bullets and the velocity for those, then he can shoot well past 1500 yards without having to even check his actual data.... I am not getting the same results.

Get the Kestrel that has bluetooth and hook it up to your App and get your weather readings there. I wish they had a booster to get more then 30' distance on the Kestrel's Bluetooth... then I could place my Kestrel out close to the target to get actual wind and data...

WS:

You are illustrating a couple of my points.

First, are you sure either of your shooting locations were really 500 yards? Just a SWAG but my bet is if one was + - about twenty yards from 500, then you probably have your answer. Grendels are not exactly flat shooters so you need to be very good at estimating range but it also depends on your success criteria.

Second (assuming both of your ranges were really 500 yards), fifty FPS equates to about 3/4 minute. Which means at 500 you were about four inches high. Is this significant? Depends on your target size but under most circumstances, it isn't significant. That is less than one minute and unless you are on the level of Stokes and are using loads you know absolutely hold under a minute at 500 with your equipment and you, then those shots could well be going within the capability of your load. rifle, sights, and you.

Third, I would ask you what your call area is and if your shots went within your call area.

Forth, I would ask you if you had a change of elevation between your zero and these shots of over 3000 feet. That is where I start to see differences in zero because of elevation.

Fifth, light conditions and mirage. From Biathlon I will say that you do experience zero changes from dark conditions to very bright and or as the sun passes across the sky. We have a saying to turn into the sun. However, this is more pronounced if the sun is going across your line of sight from left to right or right to left. And more in your eyes. Very low on the horizon, too. How much change? Experience tells you that, intuition perhaps. I am sure someone can make an app that could probably come close.

I take it the Kestrel feeds the azimuth of your rifle barrel plus longitude and latitude into your cell phone? I believe both are needed to compute corilios effect.

And so far I haven't been able to prove that coming a minute right or left automatically at 1K yards due to spin drift has any meaning at all. I have seen a couple rifles where it probably was a factor but most guys can't get a good enough no wind zero at 1K and or can't dope wind well enough (within 1 minute) for me to believe that a shot out the left was due to spin drift.

So there are a couple of things that you can think about if you want. I am sure there are more but those are off the top of my head.

LR55

[waveslayer]

The Ranges were verified with Leica Range Finder, we made sure of that. I got into it with the board president at my range out here in this communists state, he was wrong by 8-22 yards on all his ranges.

2) I would like to think I am on the same level as Stokes My Grendel is a Tack driver and my loads are all hand loads, that takes more time to load then my wife likes. That's why I have a nice couch now.

3) Shots were within 1-2 inches of called shots, I checked my data. I had one flier from me getting excited and jerking the trigger. We were lucky no wind at all!

4) Good question, not sure the elevation was, I will look at my data that's on my data book at home. I bet the elevation was different not sure how much. Erie, PA to Corona, CA (where the range is). I will double check my app and data logs.

5) Sun was at my 8-9 moving to the 2-3 O'Clock position.

I don't use the Coriolis Effect really, don't shoot it far enough yet to have it matter. The nice thing with the Shooter App is you can have it auto populate all the Kestrel data, Humidty, Dens, etc... for you and then you can get the calculations. Cool feature.

As for drift. If I shoot like Strokes then yes the barrel twist is jacking my groups at 1,200. Just Kidding.

Thanks for the heads up, I will look into it. Anyone have the G7 BC for the 120 SMK?