How much magnification is necessary?

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  • bob4432
    Warrior
    • May 2016
    • 175

    How much magnification is necessary?

    Looking for a decent scope that does not break the bank (I know the importance of the optic, but I cannot do $1K for one at the moment, thinking in the $300-$600range if at all possible?), and I need enough magnification to see 6.5mm holes in paper @ 600 and 1000yds (600yd for my 16" Grendel build, 1000yd for a build with either a 20" barrel or 6.5C) and then again how much more magnification is needed to see them @ 1000yds (just to know)? Reason I am asking is I would like to not have to rely on another person or bring additional gear when I go shooting and just use the scope on the rifle as a 2fer.

    Thanks in advance,
    Bob
    Last edited by bob4432; 07-28-2019, 08:41 AM.
  • grayfox
    Chieftain
    • Jan 2017
    • 4481

    #2
    Klem is one guy to talk to on this.
    He responded to a similar question in a thread here:
    So I realize Im late to the party, but up until the last couple years, any Leupold I liked was well outside my budget. Now I am seeing that midwayusa has some 4.5-14x50 Leupold Mark 4 scopes on clearance for $750. Does anyone have experience with this scope? I currently use a Vortex Viper HST 6-24x50. At 600yds (my local


    sounds like you may need to do some definitely good quality glass, around 20-24x on top end.
    I've shot a little at 1000 with 16x and could see the target but could not see the holes... and my hit rate was only about 25%, but I'm a nub at that distance.
    Anyway you might consider some of the Vortex line, maybe the Nikon Black 1000's. they are in your $$ range.
    Objective lens 44-50 and a 30mm tube.
    Probably want to add a 20 moa pic rail/mount as well.
    "Down the floor, out the door, Go Brandon Go!!!!!"

    Comment

    • BCHunter
      Warrior
      • Jan 2018
      • 555

      #3
      Most people I believe shoot steel targets at those ranges to get the audible confirmation. Your asking a lot,....to see bullet holes at 1000 yards!

      I have a vortex viper HD, and athlon midas, both 6.5- 25 x44, both of these are in your price range. I can see my bullet holes at 200, which is the farthest range I have access too. Hope this helps.

      Comment

      • Klem
        Chieftain
        • Aug 2013
        • 3594

        #4
        Don't know if any rifle scope on the market can see bullet holes at 1,000yds. I read that sometimes people are able to see holes that are not too close together with 60x 80mm spotting scopes in perfect conditions (no mirage). The contrast of hole and surrounds makes a big difference too. March makes an 8-80*56mm rifle scope but I have heard nothing about it other than seeing it on their website.

        Even seeing bullet holes in paper at 600yds is hit and miss unless you have ideal conditions on the day. Mirage is a killer, both at the target and from your barrel, so early mornings and not letting your barrel get hot is the go. Shooters sometimes use louvres (think venetian blinds) above their barrel in an attempt to dissipate the heat shimmer. If you can't control this then having a spotter with a second scope is preferred, or you have a spotting scope next to you. If you want to use your riflescope only you're going to have to invest in some high magnification, like at least 40x and decent glass. I was shooting 400M (437yds) yesterday using a 40x56mm March and could just see 6.5mm holes. Most of the other shooters were using Nightforce Competition's with the magnification cranked up to 55x. Some of them had spotting scopes next to them so obviously even the 55x52mm is not enough sometimes.

        Decent, high magnification scopes are worth around $3K+ so a spotting scope next to your shooting position is a solution if dollars are tight.

        Another way around this is to purchase a remote camera system. There are three or four brands on the market. Set it up near the target and look at the target back at the firing point on a screen. Or use a drone if you have access to one already. Won't be as quick as other solutions but double your fun at the same time. Or use your own electronic target. Silver Mountain sells a system which is a poor-man's version of the Swedish Kongsberg targets. Bullets must be at least supersonic at the target as it works on four microphones; one at each corner of the target. They claim up to 1,800yds is possible with the supplied antennae suitable for 1,000yds. Same deal as the camera, it displays the target on a tablet or laptop back at the firing point. I know someone who has recently bought this system and can report on it when I next talk to him.

        Or have a mate with a radio parked out near the target in a safe spot. If the range has mobile phone coverage he can even take photo's of the target and message them to you, or use old-school style spotting disks.

        That's why steel at 1K yds is so much easier for informal shooting. Paint it and the splash is so much wider than the calibre.
        Last edited by Klem; 07-28-2019, 12:12 PM.

        Comment

        • bob4432
          Warrior
          • May 2016
          • 175

          #5

          Comment

          • LR1955
            Super Moderator
            • Mar 2011
            • 3377

            #6
            Bob:

            You really need to think about this before you spend a lot of money. Bottom line is this. You will not see bullet holes at 600, let alone 1000. Even with a very expensive spotting scope, the conditions need to be ideal for you to see holes at 300. Most of the time you won't see bullet holes in paper past 200. As Klem said, mirage is a huge issue. The camera system is probably your best bet but I would not give odds that it will work very well. Paint a steel plate and maybe you will see splash but the distance will be variable due to environmental conditions.

            If I were to shoot a lot past about 500, I would not choose a Grendel. A 6.5 Creedmoore, one of the 6.5 PRC cartridges, 6.5 X 284 would be decent choices. You won't find an out of the box rifle that will perform well at that distance either so expect to spend about $5K on a decent bolt rifle made by a respectable gun maker. The optic will run you another $3K plus. A decent spotting scope another $3K plus.

            I guess store bought Grendel ammo would be fine but it isn't the factory loads that are the problem with the long distance performance of the Grendel, it is the velocity. A 30 grain capacity case does not have the velocity potential of a 40 plus grain capacity case and that makes a gigantic difference. Guys on the forum who shoot well at 1K with their Grendels are generally at or above 5K feet and are shooting in very light or no wind conditions. Throw in variable winds covering a range of five to ten MPH and even the better wind dopers have problems with low velocity cartridges.

            So, you may want to reconsider your expectations first, then consider where the Grendel really comes into its own and spend money accordingly. A decent carbine is easily carried for long distances and most of the factory loads are more than adequate for medium game at 300 or closer. If a guy wants to have some fun at distances to 1K, there are plenty of 6.5 bullets that can do the job but the big issue will be the effect of winds.

            LR55

            Comment

            • FLshooter
              Chieftain
              • Jun 2019
              • 1380

              #7
              $300-$600 won’t get you great glass.But,it will get you a scope that can do the job.Look at the Nikon X1000 line and the Vortex Viper line.Both capable of what you want to do.
              4-16x50 Or 6-24x50 is decent for shooting out to 1,000yrds.You will never see holes in paper past 500yrds.Even w/$2000-$3000 glass.Depending on the bullet size,my 88mm Kowa spotter @ 60 power can’t even do it!
              And when the Florida mirage sets in by 9am,I can’t zoom in much past10 power!When I used to shoot 850yrds out at the farm,we took turns setting up around 50 -75 yrds from the target w/spotting scope and radio in hand,to call shots.
              I own several $1000-$3000 scopes.And I own several mid priced scopes.I find that mid priced scopes do the same thing,just not as well and they don’t have the features.
              My Grendels wear a 4-16x50 Nikon x1000 non illuminated moa scope.I paid $400 for the first one. Recently got another on sportsman’s guide for $269 delivered.Also comes in 6-24x50 for $550
              I like the X1000 Nikon.Clear glass,good eye relief and tracks well.I’d compare it to my NF 4-14x50 SHV,which cost $1,000 and to my Viper PST.I easily shoot out to 600yrds with it.
              And keep in mind,this is not advice.It is my opinion from my experience.We all have diff ET preferences and different budgets.I’d try before I buy.

              Comment

              • RobUrban
                Bloodstained
                • Jul 2018
                • 94

                #8
                I picked up an Athalon ares btw 4.5-27-50 in the spring and have been very pleased with it. I can see bullet marks on steel at 650 yds. Seems like you could see them further but that is the longest distance I have the ability to shoot at my place. So far it has tracked excellent and I really like it. It is currently on amazon for under 700. I picked it up on sale last spring for under $600. Something else to consider.

                Comment

                • bob4432
                  Warrior
                  • May 2016
                  • 175

                  #9
                  @LR55
                  Thanks for the info, I appreciate the cander immensely. My main reason for the Grendel is I have serious shoulder issues in both shoulders (do not want to get into medical issues on an open forum, if you are interested I could explain that via PM) which is why l liked the Grendel, seemed to pack a good distance in a non-sbr package w/ manageable recoil (for me) and does what the 5.56 really cannot do (not trying to start a 5.56 vs Grendel war, but we all know why we are here)
                  I need a gas gun to reduce recoil as much as possible. I was very recently considering a 6.5C w/ a 16" or even 18" barrel ofthinking of 1000yds @ my altitude of ~1350'ASL, but realisticly I cannot fathom how I could be using a larger capacity case, a heavier bullet and any way get less recoil - if I am wrong, please let me know. From what I have read moving to an 18" barrel in the Grendel will not make much of a difference in velocity, I think I read that I would gain ~25-50fps at most.
                  Unfortunately my situation is not one that I can just "go to the gym and build muscle", trust me me, if my problem was that easy, it would not be a proble but my problem is much worse as the muscles in that area do not work correctly.
                  If I were to set my goal to say a max of 600yds, could that be consistently capable from the limitations of the Grendel case/bullet choice w/ a max bullet weight of ,~125gr?
                  I could do the remote camera setup having knowledge of audio/video transmission, especially line of sight w/ no obstacles between the transmitter & receiver using highly directional antennas w/ decent gain, that part seems to be the best option for seeing the holes (assuming the range I will be going to does not have an issue with such a setup, which is something I would need to verify before going that route), or if the range has an issue with it, just go old skool and check targets when it is time to check targets, which I believe is every 15min at the range I go to.
                  I went with the 16" barrel as it makes for a nicely sized rifle IMHO, punching above it's weight class and according to info I have read, delivers nearly ,,~900 lb of energy ~300-350+ yds, which checks off another box for me.
                  For me shooting has always been a way to relax, knowing I have a rifle capable of the ballistics the Grendel has, well I felt like it was everything I wanted and more. I was a bit shocked about the optic needed was a bit of an eye opener, but modifications are not an issue that cannot be changed on my end.
                  The shoulder issues I have kept out if the conversation until now (if memory serves me correctly) but it is the driving force in the rifle I have laid out, at this point all I need is a SA Adj gas block, optic & a A1 (5/8x24 in a 7.62 size) flash hider and time for the build to start.
                  IF there is a way to do a 16-18" in 6.5C then I am all ears in about the same weight I am all ears but I am pretty sure I went down that rode originally and weight was recently higher as was price even before we got into ammo costs. Plus, don't forget that 4-6 months out of the year I will be going periodically to an area where it is ~5000'ASL .
                  Dropping $7K+ is just not doable for the foreseeable future.
                  Again, I thank you for your feedback & cander, gotta get some sleep,
                  Bob

                  Comment

                  • bob4432
                    Warrior
                    • May 2016
                    • 175

                    #10
                    Originally posted by RobUrban View Post
                    I picked up an Athalon ares btw 4.5-27-50 in the spring and have been very pleased with it. I can see bullet marks on steel at 650 yds. Seems like you could see them further but that is the longest distance I have the ability to shoot at my place. So far it has tracked excellent and I really like it. It is currently on amazon for under 700. I picked it up on sale last spring for under $600. Something else to consider.
                    Thanks, will have to do a little digging into them as I am not familiar with them, but the price seems right especially if one could find a sale.
                    Do you by chance have another optic to compare it's optics too?
                    Thanks,
                    Bob

                    Comment

                    • RobUrban
                      Bloodstained
                      • Jul 2018
                      • 94

                      #11
                      This is the only tacticle style scope I have. I have some hunting leupold scopes. Vx1 and vx3. Nothing really comparable as far as features or magnification. Their are a some other members here with athalon scopes they may be able to make some better conparisons.

                      Comment

                      • FLshooter
                        Chieftain
                        • Jun 2019
                        • 1380

                        #12

                        Comment

                        • A5BLASTER
                          Chieftain
                          • Mar 2015
                          • 6192

                          #13
                          Originally posted by FLshooter View Post
                          Bottom line.
                          I will not go hungry or financially struggle ,just so I can have a high priced shooting rig.My home,business and trucks take top priority.
                          Another thought.
                          When I try to sell my custom builds and high priced glass.It is a lot harder to get close to what I paid.And it takes longer to find a buyer.In fact,I sometimes wind up keeping it because,it’s s not worth the loss or aggravation of haggling.
                          Mid priced guns and glass are easy to sell off.And I usually get away with a small loss.I like starting mid range.And if I want to step up,I can .
                          I see many guys outshoot the man w/the $4000 custom rig,using a mid range stock rifle and mid range scope.I am one of those guys.I spend more time hitting targets and mastering my rifle,than shopping for another.
                          It’s not alway’s the rifle that matters.It’s the man behind it.
                          So what power scope do you use at 1000 yards with your grendel.

                          Comment

                          • FLshooter
                            Chieftain
                            • Jun 2019
                            • 1380

                            #14
                            1,000 yrds is not avail to me at this time.My gunclub’s longest range is 600.
                            I use a Nikon x1000 4-16x50 on my 6.5 Grendel Criterion barreled upper out to 600 yrds.I will be using a gen 1 Vortex Viper 6-24x50 on my 24” Bartlien bull barreled upper when Paul Craddock sends me the barrel.
                            With the mirage we get around here,a fixed 10 power works.

                            Comment

                            • A5BLASTER
                              Chieftain
                              • Mar 2015
                              • 6192

                              #15
                              Originally posted by FLshooter View Post
                              1,000 yrds is not avail to me at this time.My gunclub’s longest range is 600.
                              I use a Nikon x1000 4-16x50 on my 6.5 Grendel Criterion barreled upper out to 600 yrds.I will be using a gen 1 Vortex Viper 6-24x50 on my 24” Bartlien bull barreled upper when Paul Craddock sends me the barrel.
                              With the mirage we get around here,a fixed 10 power works.
                              Ok was just wondering. Your first post seemed more like a sales pitch for a barrel then a reply to the OP's question.

                              I use to use a 4-16 as well but now useing a 4-20 later on when it's time for a upgrade I think I'm going with something closer to 30 power.

                              OP. Your getting great advice on the power of scope needed too accomplish what your wanting from the more senior members.

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